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Before you buy any Self Learning EFI system, please read!

Discussion in 'FAST Support Forum' started by pbp1, Oct 5, 2015.

  1. TurboNova

    TurboNova Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Location:
    Lake Havasu City AZ.. but mostly travel tuning
    My opinion,
    I don't use any self learning system on a car that is going to be raced. The intension for this system was for a guy who had a carb in a street car that is a driver who wanted EFI and didn't want to learn how to tune. The self learning feature in a drag race application will just change the fuel every pass and the car will be inconsistent. Road racing maybe but the exhaust usually does not permit this. In a racing application the Sportsman XFI and XFI 2.0 fill this gap and can be programmed to work. Now, I will say the throttle body and hardware can be used with the Sportsman XFI or XFI 2.0 and be programmed to work. But I don't believe the self tuning in a race application is a good idea, I feel the same about an overly aggressive engine and self tuning also.

    You also can't run anything that will correct fuel closed loop or self learn with too short exhaust system, slip on collectors, open headers and any of the sort, the ecu needs good info to accomplish it's calcs. Header leaks, reversion from the exhaust being too short or anything that introduces air into the exhaust system will cause the O2 sensor to add fuel thinking it is lean, this is how EFI works. The old saying is garbage in garbage out, you can't expect ANY EFI system to know what is an exhaust leak and good exhaust. Any of the above potential exhaust issues will add fuel when the engine does not want it, if it is something you can program with a laptop, you can constrain the correction to what you want or what rpm it starts at and make some of that stuff work. Even when they came out with the EZ systems there was talk that anything below 10" of vac was not real good, I don't think that has changed.

    You can easily get the street driving mild mannered EFI you expect but the overall combo needs to be looked at, if you just slap on an EFI system you can't expect it to transform your angry big cammed lumpy engine into something that idles smooth. If you want an 800ci BBC that idles smooth and you can drive it around and make 1800hp you better be looking at ALL of the parts and not just what you are going to replace the carb with.

    Bottom line is the guy who is buying is 95% responsible to research the topic, if anyone here would have taken a basic class in EFI they would have known you can't run an engine in self learn speed density with a large cam. There are several books on EFI that cover this stuff and plenty of forums (mostly just as much bad info as good) and here at CPGNation. YES, you should be able to get good info from the Sales/Tech support guys but remember they are also not out in the field installing this stuff. Most guys would rather buy this stuff from Summit and Jegs to save $5 and then complain on how it does not work. Part of our whole business plan at my shop is great tech service. This goes to the point where I spend hrs of my time on the phone with people to get their stuff sorted out and working correctly. I work closely with the staff at FAST on a daily basis, I share potential issues and fixes we found in the field and I help some of the tech guys when they are not sure how to answer a question. If your new to EFI, then buy from a competent shop with a history of installing FAST products even if you have to pay a little more for their time and support you are way money ahead.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015
    P C likes this.
  2. Darrell A. George

    Darrell A. George New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2015
    Location:
    Hoschton
    Your opinion is different from FAST (Brian Reese, VP Product and Business Development at Comp) in that Brian states the EZ is targeted at street and race and requires no unique knowledge of EFI, just follow the directions. With the vast number of videos (including Brian R.) all saying how simple an upgrade it is and it will support 1200 HP I had no reason to suspect my 331 CI Ford at 575 flywheel horsepower wouldn't work with the unit. Regardless, after a long period of trying to make the EZ work I am upgrading to the Sportsman XFI and appreciate the support shown by FAST more recently to help me get past this frustrating road block. UPS just left the box at the door so the new learning curve begins.
     
  3. TurboNova

    TurboNova Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Location:
    Lake Havasu City AZ.. but mostly travel tuning
    That's why it is my opinion..... real out in the field experience. Brian Reese is no longer at FAST. All of the "it self tunes a race car" (any manufacturer) SOUNDS great but like you found out.. it needs to be tunable.
     
    turbo nasty likes this.
  4. gmhardwick66

    gmhardwick66 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Location:
    West Monroe La.
    I have the executive 2.0 and am dealing with other issues that you've helped me with advice but read your quote on low vacuum. Well my system is working ok but I'm going through gas like crazy and so I looked at my map reading at warm idle and its 75. I'm thinking my manifold vacuum is about 7-8" My cam is a Comp Cam XS 290S which has a LSA of 110. I had no ideal of the manifold vacuum requirements when I purchased my system from JEGS. Please tell me that there is a way to manipulate the system maybe by raising the target AFRs or something. What are my options?? Thanks ahead for the education of the EFI stuff.
     
  5. gmhardwick66

    gmhardwick66 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Location:
    West Monroe La.
    I am dealing now with the same problem. I have 7-8" of vacuum and cant afford to buy a new XFI ECU JUST TO TUNE CAR PROPERLY. I WOULD THINK THAT fast WOULD HAVE A "FIX" for the people with this issue. Sorry about typing.
     
  6. TurboNova

    TurboNova Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Location:
    Lake Havasu City AZ.. but mostly travel tuning
    If it were me, I would change the cam to something that makes better vac, for a self learning system you are on the edge of not enough vac. The real fix would either be a cam or a Sportsman XFI which would plug right in. You should be looking at something in the min of a 112 CL to even a 114-116 for better idle vac.

    the issue you have with this is the idle and WOT there isn't much spread in the system. So where you would be able to lean out the idle and richen up the WOT you can't really do that very well when the change in vac is not much at all. If it were mine, the cheapest route is a more EFI friendly cam that honestly should make more power anyway.
     
  7. gmhardwick66

    gmhardwick66 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Location:
    West Monroe La.
    Well with that said can you recommend a cam with the given engine specs for the EZ EFI 2.0 that I have? Engine is a 385 Stroker all forged Lunati with 11.36:1 comp. Eldebrok Super Victor, 63cc Aluminum 210 heads. Vehicle is a 68 Chevy C10 weighing 3,800lbs with 4:10 gears. Tranny is a turbo 350 with 3,500 stall. 28" tire. Heads are set up for a flat tappet cam set up for up to .650" lift. Any suggestions would be appreciated. The cam I have now was actually suggested by a Comp Cam tech. guy . So I'm a little skeptical about asking them again but I do want or prefer a Comp Cam as all of my valve train is Comp products. Tanks
     
  8. TurboNova

    TurboNova Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Location:
    Lake Havasu City AZ.. but mostly travel tuning
    Did you get the cam before or after switching to EFI? That cam would be fine with a carb and the rest of your combo.
     
  9. gmhardwick66

    gmhardwick66 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Location:
    West Monroe La.
    I actually had the EFI on a previous sbc 350 with a similar cam profile with the same LSA of 110 as is my current cam. It too had terrible tuning problems but I was in the process of building a Stroker engine so I ended up with more cubis inches and I bought new cam specialty for the new engine. As I mentioned that I did call comp cams for a suggestion on cam. And the cam I got was one that met the specs suggested from comp. I can't remember who I spoke to but I can't honestly tell you that I told them about the Fast. You would think so but it is what it is. I'm about to call the guy you recommended and get the proper cam information.
     
  10. gmhardwick66

    gmhardwick66 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Location:
    West Monroe La.
    I did raise idle up from 850 to 1,00rpm and loosened up valve lash from .016"-.022" and the MAP went from about 75 down to about 65 I do not have a vacuum gauge so not sure exactly how much manifold vacuum I have. I did also do a complete wizard reset and am going to drive it today.
    Turbo Nova I called your guy yesterday day in the morning and late afternoon and left messages but haven't heard back from him. He will call eventually... I hope
     
  11. TurboNova

    TurboNova Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Location:
    Lake Havasu City AZ.. but mostly travel tuning
    gmhardwick66, he has had some family issues last week, he will call when he gets back to work. 10.3" is 65kpa and that is better but right on the line.
     
  12. oldandtired

    oldandtired New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2016
    Newbie here and looking to learn as much as I can. This post resolved several questions at once.
    Large BBC with monster cam going from carb to Multiport EFI- I have very low vacuum.
    Ultra rich idle and drive - answered above by TurboNova.
    And I'm guessing that why the idle sound went from Pro Stock (wild rump-ity rump) sound to Caterpillar diesel (plat plat plat plat).
    Thanks, Dave
     
  13. TurboNova

    TurboNova Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Location:
    Lake Havasu City AZ.. but mostly travel tuning
    Dave, something like you have is no problem doing with EFI with the right computer. Very low vac isn't an issue if you can get into the computer with a laptop and tune it but for a combo like yours the self learning deal isn't the fix.
     
  14. oldandtired

    oldandtired New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2016
    Do you sell the software that I can load into my laptop? Also, what would it take to go to the Dual Sync distributor so I can control timing and curve with the laptop?
    Thanks, Dave
    P.S. My unit is the EZ-EFI, not the EZ-EFI 2.
     
  15. TurboNova

    TurboNova Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Location:
    Lake Havasu City AZ.. but mostly travel tuning
    There is no software available for the EZ-EFI, not even for the EZ-EFI 2 but there is for the Sportsman XFI.
     
  16. Darrell A. George

    Darrell A. George New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2015
    Location:
    Hoschton
    Dave, as Turbo Nova said, the "Easy" solution is the Sportsman XFI, and someone who can tune it for you. Call FAST and see if they will help you with the cost of upgrading. It's unfortunate that these EZ Systems are sold as supporting 1200 HP when in fact the hardware can support it but the ECU can not always do the same. But the Sportsman XFI can get the job done, I struggled with the EZ for over a year and never could get it to perform, but with the Sportsman and a tune by Lamar Walden Automotive I won both races the first weekend I raced it. The performance was flawless. Again, call FAST and ask what help they can give you on a upgrade, they are good with their customers.
     
  17. oldandtired

    oldandtired New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2016
    Thank you both. I am hoping that my existing harness can remain intact and it would be a simple ECU swap. However, I want the ECI to control timing so another harness may be required along with a new Dual Sync distributor. Dave
     
  18. Art

    Art New Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2016
    Just reading this now, hope that I am not too late.
    I am building a DART 427 Small Block Chevy, around 11.1.1 CR, 1054 Air Flow Research 210CC Intake & 65CC Chamber, 2.08 intake valves, 1.60 Exhaust Valves, Angle Plugs,
    Pro Flow XT Edelbrock Multi-Point EFI with a FAST 30404-KIT Computer & Harness, 44 lb./hr. injectors, FAST Dual Sync Distributor & FAST Electronic CD Ignition & Coil.
    Cam is a recommendation From COMP an XFI 280 on Small Base Circle, Int. Lift .541, Ex. Lift .537, Lobe Separation 113, 1.6 Roller Rockers.
    This is going in a 55 2dr. Chevy Wagon, approx. 3500 lbs. 2600 stall converter 200R4, 3.70 rear gears and a 26.5" tall rear tire.
    Here in California it will need to run on 91 octane E85.
    I gave all of this info to COMP Cam when I asked for a Cam Recommendation.
    Will this combination work with the 30401-KIT or will I need to upgrade to the Sportsman XFI ECU?
    Thanks
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
  19. Paul Bell

    Paul Bell New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2016
    Hello folks, my first post here!

    This discussion creates a dilemma for me. I very much wish to use the EZ2 system but I have no clue what my vacuum is. The car is not running, it needs a fuel system. Is there a way to calculate engine vacuum while knowing the other parameters?

    Cam: Comp Cams part# 11-711-9 grind# 306CR-8
    Cam lift: 680/680
    Lobe sep. angle: 108 degrees
    Engine: 496 BBC, 10:1 CR
    Engine makes (at crank) 598HP @ 5,000 RPM, 592TQ @ 2,250RPM

    The vehicle had decent power brakes.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
  20. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Cam duration and lobe separation angle help with determining what idle vacuum will be. Your listed cam will make low idle vacuum. You will require the XFI Sportsman or a XFI 2.0 EFI system with this engine.
     

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