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EFI 2.0 Timing 363 stroker

Discussion in 'FAST Support Forum' started by HKMustang99, Jun 20, 2016.

  1. HKMustang99

    HKMustang99 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    Hi ,

    Vaving some issues with the initial timing settings on my Ford Racing 363.
    The handheld pre-sets the timing at 20 degrees (idle) and 31 degrees all in at 3200.
    Ford Racing specifies 32 degrees BDTC at 4000 but does not give idle timing.
    Online most SBF engines start off with 10-14 degrees of initial timing , should I follow the preset of the EFI handheld and adjust the all in timing as per below ?

    All help appreciated , here are the engine specs :

    500 hp @ 6500 rpm

    450 lb-ft @ 5300 rpm

    • Engine type: 302 based small block ford
    • Displacement (cu in): 363
    • Bore x stroke (in): 4.125" bore x 3.400" stroke
    • Block: Boss 302 8.2 deck M-6010-BOSS302
    • Crankshaft: SCAT Forged Steel
    • Connecting rods: SCAT forged steel I-beam connecting rods
    • Pistons: Forged Mahle w/ floating wrist pins
    • Camshaft type: Hydraulic Roller
    • Camshaft lift (in): .580"/.602"
    • Camshaft duration (@.050 in): 232°/240°
    • Cylinder Heads Ford Racing Aluminum "Z" Cylinder Heads M-6049-Z304DA (ex. port raised .625")
    • Valve size (in): 2.02" intake 1.60" exhaust
    • Compression ratio: 10.1:1 (nominal)
    • Rocker arms: Roller Rockers
    • Rocker arm ratio: 1.65:1
    • Vibration Damper: Ford Racing SFI Approved
    • Valve covers: Ford Racing cast aluminum M-6582-W351PR
    • Oil pan: high performance 7 quart capacity and windage tray / scraper
    • Water pump: Edelbrock hi-performance
    • Includes Ford Racing M-9439-A50 intake manifold gaskets
    • Does not include distributor, intake and flywheel
    • Recommended fuel: Premium unleaded
    • Ignition timing: 32° BTDC at 4,000 RPM
    • Maximum recommended rpm: 6,500
    • Balanced: Internal. Use neutral balance flywheel

    • Engine power rating based on long tube headers, Edelbrock intake manifold #2928 Super Victor w/ 750 Holley carb and 1" carb spacer
     
  2. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Your last line tells all "based on... 750 Holley".

    The Super Vic intake is perfect for the EZ EFI 2.0 TBI. But, if you are running a manual transmission, you have the wrong ECU. The EZ EFI 2.0 only works well with an automatic transmission.

    Fuel injection has different timing requirements than a carburetor, so you should start from scratch - the Wizard only sets a baseline. You may also need to run a colder sparkplug than the recommended plug. Adjust the idle timing upward for highest vacuum. You'll want an idle that provides at least 10 inches of vacuum in the manifold while doing this. Set slope all-in at 3400, total timing at 32 degrees. You will need to adjust the total to just before any ping starts. You may also be able to adjust the slope all-in earlier, depending on the weight and gearing of the vehicle. Turn on 5 degrees of idle trim, and you can turn on and adjust some vacuum timing after getting the "mechanical timing correct.

    Here's an example of my just over 500 HP '85 TA running a 406 Chevy small block with a similar camshaft, 9.5:1 compression, and TCI 10" 2500 stall - 30 degrees initial, 34 total, slope all-in 3200, 4 degrees vacuum advance, idle 700 RPM.
     
  3. HKMustang99

    HKMustang99 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    Hi AA ,

    Thanks for your help and advise.
    Since your original message I have had catastrophic engine failure as Ford racing decided single beehive springs were enough for a racing engine , i proved it wasn't for a street car...
    I negotiated new heads and have built the engine up again , I just recently started driving it and it was doing ok but felt I was not getting everything out of this 500HP rated engine.
    After going back to the specs I realized that the power ratings were indeed achieved with the Super Victor , but I actually was running the dual plane air gap.I have to say it ran well with the air gap but have now installed the Super Victor to see what difference it makes.
    Anyway , I am struggling to get the timing right , I am using the fast Dual Sync set up and for some reason I can get the timing light to agree with the 20 degree base set up , the adjustments on the handheld (when at the 20 degree calibration screen) do not seem to move the timing at all.
    I will reinstall the fast dual sync altthough there are tons of different suggestion as to how to install it properly but will try and follow the 1 degree install method.After that you suggest I move my initial timing immediately or start with the base tune of 20 initial and 32 all in at 3400 (as you recommended before)

    Thanks

    Mike
     
  4. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Sorry to hear about the failure. I don't run Beehive springs. I am old school.

    I also ran a dual plane on my 406 and had good results, but eventually found I just had problems I had tuned around. Switching to single plane required a different tune, but raised my power and all around performance. I now run regular fuel in the 406 with cold NGK heat range 8 plugs, 22 degrees initial, 30@3400, vacuum at 4 degrees.

    20 degrees base, slope at 3400, but 30-32 degrees all-in might be better for you Ford.

    I run the Victor Jr. on my 406 TA but had a Super Vic on my 355 in a GMC. Both engines run great, with the 406 making just over 500 and the 355 made just over 470. I have since swapped a 400 horsepower 355 into the GMC - still running a Super Vic style intake. The Victor intakes provide better fueling and for easier tuning - and more torque and horsepower throughout the entire RPM range with 2.0 throttle body fuel injection.
     
  5. HKMustang99

    HKMustang99 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    Hi AA ,

    Thanks again for your great advise.
    Sadly though , the guy who set my timing had it so far off that it detonated yesterday on my #8 cylinder piston and melted part of the piston away , so no compression anymore on that cylinder.
    I have had issues with this 363 Boss before (springs etc) and have now been offered by the guy who installed it to get decent money back for it , which will allow me to get a brand new crate engine.i still want to give Ford Racing a shot and have decided to try the 427 Ford racing engine (specs below) I will need a new intake manifold (you suggest Victor jr or Super Victor ?) , I am running a scoop air intake through the hood so clearance should not be an issue on my 68 , but will need to get a new distributor.
    In order to avoid any timing issues in the future I am thinking of investing in the FAST crank trigger (sensor) but I am wondering if I need a special dizzy for that or not ?
    Lastly , I am hoping my Tremec TKO 600 will bolt right up to the 427 , as I originally ordered it together with the 363 boss engine.
    from what i can find out online it seems it should bold right up....
    Hoping for better days , as usual thanks for your input.

    Regards ,

    Mike

    427 specs :

    535 horsepower @ 5600 rpm

    545 lb.ft. torque @ 4500 rpm

    • Engine type: 351 based small block Ford
    • Displacement (cu in): 427
    • Bore x stroke (in): 4.125" bore x 4.00" stroke
    • Block: Boss 351 9.5 deck
    • Crankshaft: SCAT® Forged Steel
    • Connecting Rods: SCAT® forged steel H-beam connecting rods and ARP® bolts
    • Pistons: Forged Mahle® w/ floating wrist pin
    • Camshaft type: Hydraulic Roller
    • Camshaft lift (in): .594"/.618"
    • Camshaft Duration – intake/exhaust (@.050 in): 242°/248°
    • Cylinder Heads: Ford Racing Aluminum "Z" Cylinder Heads M-6049-Z304DA
    • Valve size (in): 2.02 intake 1.60 exhaust
    • Valve Springs: PAC® 1219X Ovate Beehive
    • Compression ratio: 10.5:1 (nominal)
    • Rocker arms : Roller Rockers
    • Rocker arm ratio: 1.65:1
    • Vibration Damper - Ford Racing SFI Approved M-6316-D302
    • Valve Covers: Ford Racing cast aluminum black wrinkle finish 427 Cobra Script
    • Oil Pan: Steel with deep front sump pan with windage tray / scraper - 9 quart capacity
    • Water pump: included long type - standard rotation
    • Distributor: not included. MSD distributor #85840 recommended (dist. modifications for intake clearance necessary)
    • Recommended fuel: Premium Unleaded
    • Ignition timing: 32° at 4,000 RPM
    • Maximum recommended rpm: 5,600 RPM
     
  6. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    I'd say you need a new guy for timing, tuning, etc. The 427 small block will bolt to the same bell housing you already have. Use the Super Vic intake.

    Crank trigger will work fine. You just need a distributor with locked out advance, since it will only be directing the spark. I use MSD Billet with MSD Phase rotor.

    I've made almost 700 horsepower using a 13:1 compression 351 Boss in the mid 70's, and never had the problems you're having. I used the factory Boss cast iron heads re-worked for my lift. My valves were factory sized 2.19 intakes and 1.71 exhausts., sodium filled with oversized stems (the best for the day). Springs were triple, and sized for the solid lift General Kinetics experimental cam. This was in a 1/4 mile drag car. I still have the car but with a detuned lower compression street engine of 550 horsepower with a Comp track cam.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
  7. HKMustang99

    HKMustang99 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    Thanks AA , unfortunately i am based in Hong Kong and therefore choices of tuners and capable mechanics are pretty limited , i have actually been thinking of flying someone in from the States to have it sorted out properly....
    Will go through the motions of ordering and installing a fresh engine and will post updates again , thanks so much for your swift replies , much appreciated.

    Mike
     
  8. HKMustang99

    HKMustang99 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    Hi AA , running into some issues and hoping you can assist....
    I have bought my parts but I am now stuck on the following :

    Distributor - I would like to use the Fast Dual Sync but it comes with bronze or Iron gear I believe and Ford Racing insists I use steel gear for my distributor.
    That leaves only MSD but I have no clue what MSD dizzy would be best...they do have a dual sync model with steel gear and they also have other models with the mechanical lock out feature/ phase rotor.

    Crank Trigger system , the Fast kit does not work according to tech help , my crank damper is 6.61 and they go up to 6.5 I believe.
    MSD has crank trigger kits but not an exact fit , I can only go with a slightly larger crank trigger wheel from MSD around 7 inch.
    If I do go with the MSD crank trigger kit , I cant go with a crank trigger dizzy from MSD as they again do not come with steel gear , I reckon I then need the dual sync or pro billet from MSD to make it work , but will it all hook up to the FAST AL Box and EFI 2.0 ?

    Thanks again for your help !

    Mike
     
  9. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    You are worrying too much. Either the MSD of Fast Dual Sync will work fine. FAST and MSD make the correct replacement gears for any camshaft. You don't have to use or need a crank trigger on your engine. That is just an option. Your engine is designed for 5600 RPM - not 7000-8000, and the EZ EFI 2.0 just uses bank to bank injector firing and not sequential.

    I prefer the MSD Pro Billet distributors and use them and a locked out advance. The 2.0 ECU provides full timing control. The MSD Phasing Rotor is required with the MSD distributor. Fast also makes a small inexpensive wiring adapter that correctly mates the MSD pickup module wires to the FAST harness - about $14.

    Your hydraulic roller cam doesn't require any exotic distributor gear. The melonized MSD cast gear, or the one that comes on the FAST Dual Sync, will work fine with it. A stock Ford steel gear is just a melonized gear. The melonized surfacing is just for better wear-in during the break-in process. If you were running a solid roller or some other exotic cam, then a different gear would be required. Just make sure the distributor gear is sitting at the proper depth to mesh correctly with your cam gear. A MSD Pro Billet distributor, with a slip collar, makes this depth setting easy. MSD tech should be able to quickly give you all the correct part numbers for your application.

    If worried about break-in, MSD provides the instruction and gear lubricant with a recommendation to use non-synthetic oil with ZDDP additive. Your should never use Synthetic oil for a new engine anyway, and the supplied gear lubricant with ZDDP formulated engine oil is all I ever use for gear break-in. After 500 miles on street engines, I use synthetic oil - Royal Purple.
     
  10. HKMustang99

    HKMustang99 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    Thanks a bunch AA , on that basis I prefer to go with teh Fast Dual Sync as it worked fine on my 363 boss engine.
    I will forget about the crank trigger for now , I just gotta make sure that we follow the timing settings to the dot this time...
    Really appreciate your advise , will update soon on progress.

    Thanks

    Mike
     
  11. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Just be sure the depth setting for the Dual Sync is correct for a proper gear mesh.
     
  12. HKMustang99

    HKMustang99 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    Hi AA , thanks again for your swift response.
    I spoke to Ford Racing again m the y insist that I use steel gear and although I rate your knowledge higher than that of FR I figured the easiest route would be to go with MSD distributor with steel gear.
    Fast does not seem to respond to messages that easily , I have asked them if they were able to supply their dual sync dizzy for my 351W based engine but have not had a response yet.
    I have also spoken to MSD about my set-up and they did not really seem to know a lot about the FAST system , but recommended the MSD 2362 as below.
    Do you think this dizzy will work for my set up ?

    https://www.msdperformance.com/products/distributors/cam_sync/parts/2362

    Thanks !

    Mike
     
  13. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    It is overkill, possibly unreliable, and MSD doesn't supply any specifications on its operation other than being for the 351 Windsor block and coming with a steel gear.

    If the 351 Windsor style distributor is correct for your engine, this is what you want - MSD-85783. You will lock out the mechanical advance on it and use the EZ EFI 2.0 ECU electronic advance. This distributor comes with an iron gear you can replace with the MSD steel gear - MSD-85834, while locking out the mechanical advance.

    It also comes with the MSD 8467 rotor which you will replace with the MSD 84211 adjustable two piece rotor (Phasable Rotor) These are more common rotors and easier to find. The Phasable Rotor will allow you to set the distributor phasing per the FAST EZ EFI 2.0 instructions.

    If you can, I would just order this distributor with the correct replacement parts installed and the mechanical advance mechanism locked. Then, you will only need to adjust the rotor phasing.

    You'll still need to be sure the depth setting is correct for proper gear mesh. MSD is not offering a slip collar design for Ford.
     
  14. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    You'll also want the FAST wiring adapter for the MSD distributor pick up module - it's an inexpensive part.
     
  15. HKMustang99

    HKMustang99 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    Thanks AA , I am following your route with regards to dizzy , spoke to FAST but they ar enot aware of any wiring adapter to mate the MSD to the FAST EFI Ignition Box.
    Do you know a part number for that ?

    Thanks again !

    Mike
     
  16. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    The adapter mates the distributor to the ECU Crank Trigger harness connection. I believe the part # is FAST 308033. Without that Crank Trigger connection, the injectors won't fire and the ECU timing features won't operate.

    The adapter makes it easy to have the magnetic pickup wiring in phase. All other wiring must also be done correctly - according to the FAST EZ EFI 2.0 installation manual.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2017
  17. HKMustang99

    HKMustang99 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    all clear , thanks again , if you ever need anything from Hong Kong....
     
  18. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    ;) Just don't let the Hong Kong police catch you during those "Fast 'n Furious" races!:cool:
     
  19. HKMustang99

    HKMustang99 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    Hi AA ,

    As usual I am running into issues again and hoping once again you can help me out.
    After various issues with Ford Racing , i eventually received their top of the line (small block) engine , the 460 Ford Racing crate instead of the 427.

    https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-Z460FFT


    Based on that I have added the RPM Air gap (will eventually order your suggested Vic Jr) and went with the Fast Dual Sync dizzy.
    The car still has the TKO 600 manual , I know auto works better for the 2.0 but would like to see where i can get with the new engine first.
    I have now added custom ceramic coated stainless headers from ultimateheaders.com , they are truly incredible and now matched to 3 inch straight pipes.
    I once again ran into huge timing issues , but I think I have found the cause for that , although checking TDC with rocker covers off , the timing marker on crankshaft is probably reversed as I have added a March serpentine system and the timing marker is perhaps not in the right spot for my engine.
    I just received a TDC and pistin stop for my "mechanic" in order to be absolutely sure about TDC and have bough a timing tape to put on the crank , so will make a new timing marker/pointer to be sure those readings are correct.
    Although the instructions for initially setting the Fast dizzy are very confusing (1 degree/50 degree and the alternative method described in the ez efi 2.0 manual) , I think I will go with the 1 degree installation procedure.
    I have read through most of your posts on the timing of these engines , but I believe you have advised somewhere to leave the FAST initial settings alone first before trying anything , would that be correct ?
    Based on my cam and other engine specs , would that be the best way to get the car going forst so it can learn ?

    Thanks a lot again...

    Mike
     
  20. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Be sure the FAST distributor is setup and timed to the engine correctly. Use the Wizard settings first. Ford wants premium fuel in this engine, but you might want to start with all-in timing at 30 degrees instead of 32 degrees. A first drive will show where the timing needs to be by looking at the plug side electrode. The heat line should center on the side electrode. The EZ 2.0 will start learning from there.

    Ford doesn't say what the lobe separation of this engine cam is, so it may not even be compatible with the EZ 2.0. The engine will have to make at least 10" of vacuum at idle for the EZ 2.0. Personally, especially after what you have been through, I would dump the EZ EFI 2.0 ECU and install the Sportsman ECU. The Sportsman ECU is a direct swap-in using the same wiring you have installed for the EZ 2.0. Sportsman setup will be easier, and will offer fewer headaches. Sportsman has no such idle vacuum requirement as the EZ ECU systems have. Contact Richard at fasmanefi.com. He will even supply you with custom fuel maps for your engine with a purchase of the XFI Sportsman ECU at his store. The EZ handheld does not work with the XFI Sportsman, so you may want the XFI handheld also - but a handheld is not mandatory with Sportsman. You only need a cheap computer to set up Sportsman. Richard will also help you with all of this.

    You will have to pull the plugs and make sure the center ceramic is not blistered or getting heavily covered in black soot. What you read at the plugs will determine a possible change in plug heat range and manual adjustment of the idle and cruise F/A ratios. Sportsman also offers adaptive learning - the big difference being it can be turned off as needed.

    I'll try to keep up with your posts, but I'm having some health issues at the current time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017

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