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EZ EFI 2.0 Injection With Dual Plane Intake Vs Single Plane

Discussion in 'FAST Support Forum' started by A A, Mar 15, 2016.

  1. J.K.

    J.K. Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    I got everything buttoned up! New cam is in, reset the ECU to factory settings. I just remembered I only reset it once and I sometimes read guys are doing a reset three times. How critical is it that it be done three times and where does that number come from? Sure is nice to see the map reading is down at idle. Took it for a 10 mile ride, so far so good
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
  2. J.K.

    J.K. Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    So I'm all ears if you have some tuning tips. Currently I have base timing at 20* for a total of 34 in by 3400rpm. AFR's are currently still set at factory. Idle speed set at 950 currently. So far it's running 57-59 map when idling.
     
  3. J.K.

    J.K. Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    Spark plug selection I'm not familiar with, but I'm sure it's probably off tune now. I'm currently running AC Delco 41-629 in my AFR 195 heads. I don't know where they are for heat range comparison to an NGK. I also have a set of NGK R5671A-8, this was recommended by an engine builder as I have a small 100 shot of nos I will eventually use. I did use back in my carb days but haven't yet with the EFI, I want to dial everything else in first.
     
  4. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    The three time reset was actually an idea of mine after noting one of my ECUs didn't always fully reset the F/A maps after a reset.:) All that matters is all the old data cleared. That change in idle sound represents better fueling at idle.

    Do a reset and take your idle down to at least 750-800. The engine should run sweet after a drive, but your alternator may need an upgrade to hold good voltages at the lower idle. Map should only increase between 62-65 at idle in gear, and should be little to no problem - even with power brakes. You may want to pull off all-in timing to between 28 to 32 at your compression (start low and read from a freshly run plug). You may need to try the NKG heat range 7 or heat range 8 NGK R5671A-8 plug - either one should be very close. The AC Delco 41-629 crosses over to heat range 4 or 5 in NGK - which is a hotter range (probably too hot to prevent pre-ignition in your engine). Running a plug that is too hot will adversely affect F/A adaptive learning. You need the correct plugs installed for the adaptive learning to build optimum fuel maps. Once all of this is set right, you can add some vacuum advance for increased fuel mileage. The NGK R5671A-8 plug is what I have to install in my 406 small block before racing - and I have no NOS.

    NOS sounds like a plan. Get everything else right before adding it. Remember, your 383 stroker is close to 500 horsepower already.
     
  5. J.K.

    J.K. Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    14.5 volts at idle so far. I'll remove these AC Delcos in favor for my NGK's for now. I'll drop the idle to 800 and see how it goes. Is my idle timing of 20* in the ball park or should I consider bumping it up also? So far the short run I did make already feels good.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
  6. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    20 degrees at idle should be fine for now. After lowering the idle, just be sure your voltage stays above 12.7 at idle with all electrical accessories on. As long as the MAP stays below or in the 62-65 range idling in gear on level ground, you could set the idle at 750 or 700. Lowering the idle will lower the idle fuel use. (lbs. per hour will drop on the handheld) Be sure to have the default 5 degrees of idle trim timing turned on - helps smooth the idle as needed.

    Lowering the idle helps improve start fueling and start fuel adjustment, and lowers the fast idle for a cold engine. It also helps reduce any low throttle surging in gear.
     
  7. J.K.

    J.K. Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    I'm curious is it normal for idle AFR to constantly be a few points richer than target? I thought it was a cam issue with my previous cam, but my new cam is experiencing the same. I've searched high and low for exhaust leaks, changed gaskets anyway to eliminate the chance. I'm running full length headers and my O2 sensor is about 10 inches past the header collector end (in the exhaust pipe). I'm confident I don't have a leak at this point. If I lean my target fuel mix anywhere around the 14.0 or up AFR, it actually does a better job of hitting that target. Set at 13.5 it will tend to run at 13.3 consistently. It will always run .2 richer than a given target and show a 0% correction ..unless I have the target closer to 14.0.

    This only happens in the idle target
     
  8. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    It sounds like your old maps haven't been completely erased by the reset - if the target AFR isn't what the Wizard, or you manually set. This will sometimes cause a target AFR reading other than the one manually set. If this is the case, it could require a reset that also includes removing all power to the ECU for a complete reset to occur. I've also seen the target correct to what was manually set, on its own after some driving.

    The learning AFR varies constantly due to the adaptive learning. The O2% reading is the one that matters. If the O2% is zero or close to zero at steady RPMS, the F/A is on target. The ECU adaptive learning adjusts the F/A to what it sees the engine wanting. This is why correct O2 sensor readings are critical - along with MAP, temperature, and TPS readings.

    The O2 sensor after the collector is a problem - if not now, it can become one later due to flex at the collector connection. The O2 sensor needs to be before the collector - it can even be positioned in a straight section of an individual cylinder header tube. Even a very slight unnoticed leak will upset the O2 sensor readings and A/F mapping.

    To avoid over lean conditions, just let the Wizard set the AFR idle and cruise ratios. The adaptive learning will take care of the rest. The Wizard will set the target idle A/F to 13.5, and the target cruise to 14.0. The adaptive learning adjusts the fuel maps to the actual A/F as it sees what the engine wants.

    How do the plugs look? As I said earlier, if the heat range is incorrect it will adversely affect fuel mapping. The shiny coating on an NGK side electrode should only burn back from the open end to the center of the bend/electrode.

    If you have the NGK heat range 8 plugs in, it's possible you have no current real problems - unless you over advance the timing.
     
  9. J.K.

    J.K. Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    I will try posting pics of both sets of plugs later. Maybe a complete reset is needed, I already did the reset four times while also cycling the ignition off and on between resets. So you think a reset plus disconnecting the power source such as removing it from the battery will delete any bad maps? Is there a time frame to leave it disconnected? I drove it all afternoon today and it definitely hunts for that idle AFR of 13.5. Usually hovering around 13.2 and occasionally hitting 13.5 briefly. Another thing I notice is my IAC is very inconsistent. Sometimes letting off the throttle it returns to idle nicely and has 18-20 IAC reading, next stop it will dip in idle and IAC numbers in the late 20's.

    How do you have your throttle blades set? Mine came out of the box with progressive and I since changed it to be as close to 1:1 as I can get it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
  10. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    When you post the plug pics, post a screen view of the handheld with the engine idling. Disconnecting the battery for a minute after a reset should do it.
     
  11. J.K.

    J.K. Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    Here is the AC Delco 41-629 plug, and also the NGK-8 plug. The handheld here shows it still struggling to hold target idle. It sounds actually like it loads up.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    TPS is too low. It should be reading about .4 at idle. Both plugs look like they were incorrectly torqued. 18 ft. lbs. is needed to get correct transfer of heat through the gasket. The race plug looks better in that there appears no signs of detonation or pre-ignition in spite of being overheated.

    Check for intake leaks. Check the plug wiring is correct and that you have no consecutively firing plug wires running parallel. With the engine running, check for any codes and check the IRM number. It does look like extra air is getting to the O2 sensor from the exhaust. You need to move the O2 sensor somewhere before the collector. If your exhaust is open, you'll also need pipes and mufflers to prevent exhaust reversion from affecting the O2 sensor.

    The 2.0 throttle body needs to have the rear throttle blade basically closed at idle.

    Reset using the Wizard. Let the Wizard set idle speed to 750. Be sure to input the correct cubic inches. Let the Wizard set the idle AF and cruise AF - it will also set WOT to about 12.5. Follow each Wizard step carefully - supplying the correct information asked for and following each step.

    Use the main throttle screw to set the IAC target. Then carefully pay attention to setting the TPS. Let the Wizard set the timing it wants with all-in slope at 3400. That should end up 20 degrees at idle and 31 degrees at 3400. Using the Advanced menu, change the all-in timing to 28 degrees at 3400. Then, don't idle the engine, drive the car. You want learning to take place with the engine at load. You may need to reset the IAC target several times.

    Once all of this is done, you should start having better numbers on the handheld. Post a pic of the handheld (at idle) again once you have done this.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
  13. J.K.

    J.K. Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    How does one adjust the tps voltage at idle. On the handheld it shows the IAC within range. The only way I can think to increase the tps voltage would be to turn up the throttle screw, wouldn't that just put the IAC out of range and cause a high idle condition?
     
  14. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    I believe your rear throttle blades are open beyond the factory setting. This means your front main throttle has to be closed more than usual to stay in the IAC target range. You don't need the rear blades opened more. With the rear blades closed again, like they were originally from FAST, you will see TPS volts return to .3-.4 when you adjust the IAC target. When adjusted correctly, the IAC will return to its normal average of 20 counts. If you find the rear blades are correctly set, you have an intake leak somewhere that needs correcting. This would also account for the sucking noise you mentioned after warm-up while driving.

    Idle speed is controlled by the handheld. Adjusting the main throttle set screw only adjusts/changes the IAC target and TPS volt range.

    You'll have to get your settings back into the proper parameters, then you'll be able to fine tune the system. Without correct baseline settings, you won't be able to optimize the system. Your new cam changed what was needed by the old cam.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
  15. J.K.

    J.K. Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    So I checked the torque of the plugs with a torque wrench, three of them I can't get at with the torque wrench. Those ones I have to go by feel. I put slack in the secondary linkage so the primary is not holding it open at all and the stop screw has the secondaries closed. They can't close any further. I did another reset followed with disconnecting the power for ten minutes. Entered the same data with the exception of going with the ECU preset idle speed of 750 rpm. Took it for a ride after warmed and the IAC set. After several Miles of both stop and steady cruise I thought my results would be the same as it was trying to maintain 13.2 at idle again. Pulled into the driveway and let it idle two minutes and the tone suddenly changed and for the first time the AFR is closer to the target set.

    I checked for any codes, there are none. I don't even have an IRM count. In this screen image the map reading is kind of high. I'm thinking I may be better off bumping the idle up.
    one thing I notice though it doesn't matter which cam it is or which intake manifold I have...if I go by the 14.0 factory cruise AFR I hear what I think is misfire. Seems a fatter cruise mixture doesn't do it.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Turn the rear throttle blade screw no more than 1/4 turn to just open the rear throttle blades. Use the advanced menu Don't make any changes for now. What is your slope and all-in timing? Keep a check on the IAC and TPS (and their adjustment) using the Advanced menu. Your idle TPS value needs to remain at .3 to .4 at 750. Post another screenshot of the handheld and a picture of two of the plug insulators.

    I'll help you get the MAP lower next. A vacuum gauge would be helpful.

    That "misfire" is more likely a hot manifold or carbon particulates igniting fuel.
     
  17. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    You'll also need to go slower making changes, to allow the ECU learning and correction to take place.
     
  18. J.K.

    J.K. Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    I think you are absolutely right about going slow on the changes, I have to really fight the urge to blindly make changes in desperation to make drivability better. Past experience it always started out running and driving better after a reset. Seemed like the more it learned...the worse it ran. And by running bad I only refer to off idle transition. One of the most annoying things it has always done after learning some is falling flat out lean when rolling off idle with approx .7 volts tps.
    If a little more aggressive off idle it worked fine, but that's not always possible in traffic.
    Easy off idle transition would start good, then lean itself right out as if the fuel shut off and then the AFR would catch itself again. This just spoils the enjoyment of cruising.
    Many a time I have been tempted to go back to carb. But I'll keep trying things. I've already learned a lot from you that I wasn't aware of before. I'll give it some learn time the next few days and see what happens.
     
  19. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Some of that was caused by you having too hot of a plug and too much timing for your engine and its compression - that was pre-ignition and detonation occurring. With more aggressive driving, the problem was still there, but fuel enrichment was changing things. You'll get it sweet this time.
     
  20. J.K.

    J.K. Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    So I have a few days of rain so I have time now to look into my driveline vibe again. With the car on level ground at ride height I checked my angles and here's what I got.

    The transmission is sitting -3.5 tail down, the driveshaft is at -1.0 going down toward the rear, the rear axle housing is pointing -1.0 down towards the front. I don't know how much axle wrap there is....but I suspect I should probably shim the axle to point down a little more. What's your opinion based on these specs?
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016

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