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EZ EFI 2.0 Injection With Dual Plane Intake Vs Single Plane

Discussion in 'FAST Support Forum' started by A A, Mar 15, 2016.

  1. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Okay, here's what I see. It looks like you have way too much anti-seize on the threads. This will cause some misfiring - even if it isn't showing up for now. Clean all of it off - NGK recommends not using it with their plugs, as their plugs are specially coated. It takes very little anti-seize when used, and only about half the amount of a small match head when needed.

    1) Keep your F/A mixes where they are for now. Check WOT is on 12.7.
    2) It's hard to see the plug heat at the threads due to the excess of anti-seize - but two to three threads should be showing some carbonation after some miles. Also, the plug heat range looks decent at this point.
    3) What I can see of the ceramic insulator looks good - but you don't have many miles on these plugs. I like to see accumulated pump gas additives turn the ceramic a light tan - but it takes some miles for this to occur. Looking at the ceramic, there are two basic levels - one near the top outer half of the firing end (shows idle F/A), and one deeper into the plug shell (shows cruise F/A). Coloration of both should become a light tan after some miles - and you may even see something of a slightly darker color line where they meet. But again, this takes some miles on the plugs.
    4) You may also spot a .020" ring (lighter or white in color) on the ceramic near the center electrode. This shows the heat of the CD system is correct - and will show better when richer mixtures are in use. But, don't richen your mixture to find it. Your plugs are looking good for now - F/A (at least idle F/A) and plug heat range look good.
    5) Timing is hard to see on your side electrode, but I think I see some of it. It looks like some of the lower RPM timing is good. But, I believe your all-in slope is too low and timing is over advancing at higher RPMs. Take slope all-in to 3600. I believe taking the total timing down to 30 degrees, with the current fuel you are using, will cool things a bit and give you better acceleration. The added slope should also help prevent any pre-ignition or detonation in the higher RPMs.

    This may put you dead on the money for performance, but you will need to accumulate some miles before checking the plugs again. I do believe the changes will feel better to you.

    As for setting the base timing, your engine may like 20 degrees with the idle trim at 5 degrees. This will give just a slight amount more of part throttle timing. I believe 30 degrees total will be your maximum timing with this engine - so, if turning on vacuum timing, you'll need to cut back the mechanical so the total of it and any vacuum timing stay at 30 degrees maximum. With your current fuel, and the look of your plugs, I don't think you'll ever need to lower total timing below 30 degrees. The addition of the vacuum timing will add a few more degrees at part throttle RPM for improved mileage.

    If keeping your total timing at 30 total doesn't help full throttle running, you may be able to take your timing back to a maximum of 32 - but watch carefully for any signs of pre-ignition (splash deposits on plug insulators (even very light), or any detonation signs). Check all plugs when looking for signs of splash deposits - all cylinders will not run the same temperature.

    Everything looks really close. Hope this helps.
     
  2. J.K.

    J.K. Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    Thanks A A , I just want to clarify though there is no anti seize on the threads. With the plated threads of the ngk plug I don't use it on these plugs. I think richening my cruise mixture made a big difference on drivability both in tip in and more torq with less pedal travel. The cruising misfire sound pretty much fixed itself with this adjustment. Off idle throttle response could be better yet.

    Now having said all that I am burning up the remainder of the 94 octane with ethanol blend I put in before going to storage last year. Some engine guys are telling me the ethanol actually makes it run hotter and that I shouldn't use it. That leaves me with 91 octane at highest without ethanol. So I'm not sure yet what change over will do to my current tune.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017 at 8:26 AM
  3. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Glad that isn't anti-seize - don't know why it looks like it to me other the plugs look so fresh. You'll definitely need to drop total timing some when you go to 91 Octane. Just keep a close eye on the plugs. You're very close on your tune, but it will change some with the lower octane fuel. All pump fuel here has up to 10% Ethanol. I wouldn't worry about the Ethanol, it just means you need to run a slightly richer F/A mix. You could easily drain your tank and switch over to E-85 with the EZ EFI 2.0, but you would have to run the much richer fuel mixture for it.

    Using some amount of the vacuum timing, without increasing total timing will likely help improve off idle throttle response. Pulling the initial timing up to 20 degrees should also help unless you get part throttle ping there. You want the initial timing high enough to keep things cooler and the engine smooth with idle vacuum at its steady highest. Find what the engine likes best for initial timing with the idle trim turned off - then turn idle trim back on. Taking slope all-in to 3600 or higher should also help eliminate any full throttle roughness. You need to get the timing perfect for your fuel before changing F/A. Going from 94 to 91 will require a new tune.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017 at 8:43 AM
  4. J.K.

    J.K. Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    So I messed around with my car again tonight. The 94 octane in my tank was pretty much done, so I refilled with 91 and threw in a bottle of lucas oil 3x octane booster. Not sure if it's beneficial yet but the reviews looked good. Aside from that I bumped up initial timing from 15 to 20 and haven't touched vacume advance yet. Here's where I become unsure where to go next. I say so because the results are both good and not so good. For the good the tires definitely want to begin breaking loose with way less effort on the bottom end. Seems the low end torq on take off is much better at 20 initial. For the bad the idle tends to hang up when coming to a stop and slowly dropping to the desired idle speed. Sometimes dipping below idle speed before coming back up to set speed. Iac calibration looks good. With 15 initial it has a much more stable idle, but lacks the low speed take off torq.

    On a side note, what's your take on the exhaust scaveging and it's affects on getting a good tune. Reason I ask is I currently have an H-pipe crossover approximately 3.5' behind the 02 location in the driver's side header. How would an x-pipe compare to an h-pipe? Some say the x-pipe scaveges much better, so much so that they notice much less drone inside the car. Just got me thinking if the type of crossover could have an effect on the 02 reading.
     
  5. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    As long as you have mufflers and a full exhaust system, the O2 sensor won't be affected. The major noticeable benefit of going to an x-pipe crossover from an h-pipe crossover is it usually makes a difference in exhaust tone - slightly more mellow. The x-pipe also gives slightly better scavenging by helping to balance cylinder pulses. That's what the earlier h-pipe design was also about - the x-pipe is just an improvement on the older design. Balancing cylinder pulses is also why race headers have wrap around designs, with some tubes crossing to outlets on opposite sides. This helps dampen exhaust outlet pulses for some flow improvement - it also sounds better.

    Okay, you've seen the torque improvement at 20 initial. Use a vacuum gauge and watch for the steadiest idle you can get. That may be somewhere between 17-20 degrees or could be a few degrees more. Take slope to 3600-3800, as higher RPM timing will also affect idle on and after deceleration - you also need to work in a few degrees of vacuum timing (4 degrees would be good) without increasing total timing. You want run as much initial as possible without affecting idle quality or getting part throttle ping. This improves power, lowers header temps, and improves mileage. Other changes may also be needed to help smooth the idle - such as idle F/A, and the IAC and TPS settings. All of this has to be done with the engine fully warmed. This would have been easier while you were still running the 94 octane fuel with no additives. Working with additives makes it more difficult. By going to a lower octane fuel, even without additives, finding reliable timing will be more difficult.
     
  6. J.K.

    J.K. Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    Well I went out for another ride today. Made some adjustments, I left my initial timing at 20 and moved my total of 32 up to 3600rpm. Then I added 10 vacume. The car loves the extra vacume timing. Went over an overpass and lugged the engine up to the top while experimenting with vacume off and on. No noticeable pinging at all under load but it sure made a significant improvement. Holding a steady throttle it tended to slow down and sound like it was straining to get up the hill with no vacume timing. With vacume timing it pulled itself up the hill without slowing or skipping a beat, like it was on a flat road. Fuel consumption down also. It's a bit cool today but it never climbed over 190 degrees in the city. Out on the highway it ran 179 degrees. That's with a 180 thermostat. I will leave it like this for a while as I think I am very close now. It's the best it's ever been. Cruising highway timing with vacume now is 34 degrees and it loves it. Also the plugs looked like a light chocolate color. Never seen that color on the plugs before but I assume that is probably a result of the octane additive on the tank. Looks very close and maybe could even lean up the cruise a touch.

    The only area I'm still not completely happy with is idle. I have it set to 800rpm and 13.6 AFR. The IAC perfectly between 15-20. But as soon as it's driven a few blocks and brought back to a stop, idle wants to hang 850-900 rpm and IAC pegged at 005. Map reads 57-59, idling at AFR target 13.6. If I sit idling long enough at the stop light it eventually begins to sound as if it's loading up, the AFR drops to 13.3 (hunting back and forth to the set target), map goes to 65 and idle sits 750-800 rpm. It never has stalled out on me yet but does sound as though it's struggling a bit. It seemed to be more steady with a lower initial timing but tip in suffered with less initial. I wonder when I come to a stop...having just spent stored up vacume from the brake booster would trick it into acting as a vacume leak while the booster recharges itself, that could be the reason it's hanging up on idle? Once it's recharged again the vacume leak would be gone and therefore richening up again? Just some thoughts. Should I be richer at idle than 13.6? Seemed to me the exhaust was already smelly at idle, but not sure if it's cuz it's lean, or rich. I know higher idle timing supposedly creates smelly exhaust also.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017 at 10:19 PM
  7. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Try taking the idle and cruise A/F to 13.8 and 14.0. But, first pull total timing back to 28 degrees. You're running rich and, once you start leaning, pre-ignition and detonation will quickly start if you don't pull the total timing back. Get the idle and cruise F/A correct first at 28 degrees of total timing. The light chocolate insulators are just showing the rich A/F. Remember, stoichiometric is 14.7 for gas. Your cruise A/F may end up being perfect at 14.7. If it does, start further leaning of the idle A/F. Keep WOT at 12.7.

    Once you have the F/A right, you can work slowly and carefully at seeing how much total timing you can add - if any, using straight 91 octane.

    With A/F and timing set, you will be able to set the idle at 700-750 - which also lessens any surging on decel.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017 at 12:50 AM
  8. Denis

    Denis Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Location:
    Mendocino County, Northern Calif
    Be careful on the timing. Some engines need much more timing and some less. For example, a SBC with fast burn heads will most likely be happy at 28* and yet my engine with AFR 195 heads and 10.25cr wanted 38* on the dyno to make maximum power and there was no preignition. We did test at 39* and power started to decrease slightly. Still no preignition! My previous heads would detonate at 30* and even with significant retard from the knock sensor were still detonating. I used to have to fill the tank with 105 octane racing fuel prior to racing the car to avoid detonation. Now I run California 91 octane premium fuel.

    I am running 38* timing in at 3000 RPM and "vacuum advance" up to a total max of 45*. I have arrived at the optimum vacuum advance table with my XFI 2.051 through several years of experimentation while on highway trips. End result is that I get almost 20mpg with about 500hp and a 3,800lb car. The drivability of the car is fantastic, smooth with instant response and no popping going downhill.
     
  9. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Some engines don't need or want much total timing. It is only safe to start out low and then increase timing as you see what the engine can stand and where best performance is. Many variable factors come into play when finding the optimum timing - not the least of which is how well the camshaft scavenges the intake to pack cylinders. It's a very bad idea to start an engine tune with the timing advanced beyond a safe point - like 28 degrees total for SBC. With Nitrous, even 28 degrees total can be too much.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017 at 8:47 PM
  10. Denis

    Denis Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Location:
    Mendocino County, Northern Calif
    AA,
    I totally agree.
    Denis
     

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