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New Crate Hemi does not start?

Discussion in 'FAST Support Forum' started by RylisPro, May 27, 2015.

  1. RylisPro

    RylisPro New Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    Hello I am posting up on this forum for help on trying to start my Gen 3 Hemi crate engine.
    I have spark to the coils verified by a spark tester to all 16 coil leads.
    There is fuel to the injectors verified by pulling all 16 spark plugs which are wet covered in fuel.
    what happens when I crank the starter is that is sputters and pops, we saw a flame shoot out of the intake once and some occasional loud booms out of the exhaust (backfire?) ....but no start.

    Background:
    Vehicle: 1973 Plymouth Cuda
    Engine: is a brand new 426 aluminum Gen 3 Hemi crate engine from Arrow Racing in Michigan.
    Trans: T56-Magnum 6 speed
    XFI and XIM boxes were bought brand new back in 2008-2009 and were never used until I shipped them to Arrow Racing. Arrow Racing got my boxes and built the engine for me and test ran it to check for leaks. The engine and XFI and XIM boxes and harness arrived via freight to me in a big plastic engine crate and everything looked in great shape. I could tell that the engine was previously run from the soot in the exhaust ports.

    XFI and XIM harness were supplied by Arrow Racing and looked brand new when I installed them on the car. Harnesses have been checked for continuity from the crank and cam sensors, hall effect connection, coils to the XIM box. I have also checked for the correct pin arrangement on the 18 pin XIM connector. Output A is an orange wire from coil 1 and it goes to C1, output B goes to D3 etc. I did all the wiring harness install myself. Coils harness is in the typical 18436572 firing order. Odd numbers on driver side, even on pass. side.

    XFI and XIM boxes are directly hooked up to the Bat + and - posts with the switch +12 attached to the Bat + as well.
    (I do have to wire a relay into my starter in order to get full power to it still, so temporarily I have hooked up a second battery to the XFI and XIM boxes in order to provide the system full voltage. That second battery is grounded to a floating ground setup. There is a full 12 volts on the CCOM dashboard). When cranking, all the LED's on both the XFI and XIM boxes light up, the power, crank, cam and status/points as well as all 8 injector LED's, four at a time.

    The floating ground setup consists of 4 gauge cables from both heads and starter to a copper bus bar on the firewall to the engine block/trans mounting location all the way back to the rear mounted AGM battery via a 0 gauge negative cable. Positive cable is 0 gauge as well. Battery is a new H7 AGM 1000 cranking amp battery for the late model Challenger SRT8's. Starter is new a 200ft lbs. unit from Powermaster.

    The XIM box dip switches are set to 1,1,1,1,1,1,0,1 which is for a late model Hemi with Coil on plug. I even tried 1,1,1,1,1,1,0,0 which is set to waste spark and that made no difference.
    In the CCOM software the CAN is enabled (with CAN wires connected and ends terminated), TPS is auto-calibrated, Crank Ref. Angle is 50, IPU/XIM ignition, SEFI mode, Speed density mode. I have Deka 42 lbs. injectors and the injector flow rate is 52. I am getting an RPM signal when cranking and TPS is less than 80 so that I am not in clear flood mode.

    I have never used an EFI system before and I honestly do not know much about tuning, programming etc., so I called up Mr. Nedbal Fastman EFI for help. He helped me via email, with my issues of updating the software to V2.051 and providing a modified .gct file that Arrow Racing had provided. We still were not able to start the engine.

    The only thing I did to the engine different from when I came out of the crate is to change the stock fuel rail dead head regulator setup to a full return system with billet fuel rails and an Aeromotive regulator set to 45 psi. mounted directly on the passenger rail. I also added a remote oil filter relocation so as to fit it on the K-frame inside the car. Break-in oil is Delo 15w40.

    Since I have spark to all 16 coil leads and fuel to all the plugs from the plugs being wet, that leads me to believe that I have a timing/ firing order issue. I have replaced the crank sensor with a new one from the dealer but have not yet replace the cam sensor, but even then I doubt that is the issue.

    I am at a loss here and frustrated to a point where I just want to set fire to the car haha!
    Sorry for the long post, just wanted to be thorough as possible and looking for any insight on anything I might have missed?

    Some pics:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Wow, you made it reading this far!
    please enjoy a short video of my car with the old 340 motor from last summer


    I know my car looks like crap, and that is because I am now broke haha!

    thanks!
    Ariel Alvarez
    [​IMG]
     
  2. eagle1_77

    eagle1_77 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2014
    If i compare with my old 350 SBC, that was the same problem when my distributor was offset by 180 degrees. But on your engine, i don't know which type of ignition you have.
     
  3. maxwell

    maxwell Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Check to make sure the Status led is lit up on the XIM. This lets you know that the XFI and XIM are communicating.
    Without Status the timing will be off quite a bit.
    The most common cause of no Status I run into is the CAN connections. Only One Male and One Female plug should be connected. The other Male and Female, should have the "Caps" installed, which contain a terminating resistor.
     
  4. RylisPro

    RylisPro New Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    I was thinking along the same lines that if I had a distributor, it was 180 degrees off. Instead of a distrbutor, these new engine have crank and cam sensors instead, correct?
    I have already tried two different crank sensors, one is brand new from the dealer. I have ordered a new cam sensor from the dealer as well.

    In the mean time I was thinking of making some test wires so that I could re-pin the firing order on the XIM coil harness as I have some spare wire and metripack pins.
    Someone correct me if I am wrong but from what I understand is that the Hemi coil firing order is:
    A1
    B8
    C4
    D3
    E6
    F5
    G7
    H2

    So if I am 180 degress out I would have to re-pin it to:
    E1
    F8
    G4
    H3
    A6
    B5
    C7
    D2

    Basically switch around ABCD with EFGH. If that doesnt work then I only should have 6 other combinations to try as the motor only spins one way clockwise right?

    The status led on the XIM and all the other leds on both XFI and XIM boxes do light up.
    The one strange thing that I did notice was that the last time I tried to crank the engine, that the injector leds were dimmer than before.
     
  5. shelbydogg

    shelbydogg Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    I'm wondering why you have to change anything at all, if the engine guys had your engine running with the same XFI and XIM that they sent you back with the engine.

    Start from the beginning, like you are setting it up yourself, then compare that to how it is setup now.

    Don't start guessing and trying different combos with the firing order.
    Disable your fuel system and crank with all of the plugs out. Use a timing light to see when your #1 plug fires in relation to #1 TDC. Don't guess on this or you will ruin your engine.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2015
  6. RylisPro

    RylisPro New Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    I agree with you shelbydogg, sometimes it's hard for me to think logically when I'm frustrated...

    I will go over the FAST installation manual again to see if I missed any steps or installed anything wrong.
    I will also get a timing light and see where the timing is at.

    thanks
    [​IMG]
     
  7. TurboNova

    TurboNova Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Location:
    Lake Havasu City AZ.. but mostly travel tuning
    98% of the time this issues is a bad cam sync issue. The cam sync has to get 2 good syncs before it starts trying to fire. If it does not you will get the backfire ect.. Check XIM sync and Cam Sync BDTC while cranking to see if you get a good consistent signal. If either move around then that is your issue. The wire going to the cam sync is very susceptible to ignition noise from the spark plug wires, coils, wires to the coils ect. so make sure this wire is clear from any of this stuff.
     
  8. RylisPro

    RylisPro New Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    Ok I turned on dashboard the XIM sync, XIM RPM, CamSync BTDC, and CamSync flag

    XIM Sync = 0 yellow
    XIM RPM = 0 red
    Cam Sync BTDC = 50, 64, 65, 66, 67
    Cam Sync Flag = 0 red, 1 green

    RPM = 50, 100

    So I must not be getting a clean CAM signal?
    [​IMG]
     
  9. pbp1

    pbp1 Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    One other thing to try, MOST Gen III 426 Hemis use the later "Eagle" (60-2) crank signal pattern. If yours does, then the 4th switch in the XIM should be Off (11101101). Definately do not try wasted spark!
    The puzzling thing is that if Arrow ran your engine with your XFI and XIM, the switches, and everything else, should be correct. If this is an engine that they built (as opposed to a 426 crate motor from Chrysler), then they could have used a crank with the earlier 36-2-2 crank pattern which would need the 4th switch in the On position (11111101).
    The two switch patterns above are the only two possibilities for a Gen III Hemi!

    Also, the info above indicates that you do not have CAN communication because you have RPM on the XFI and none on the XIM RPM. Go into your software, connect to the XFI, go to "View", then "Display ECU Configuration". In this window, you will see various ECU information like the serial #, ECU Firmware, etc., but look for the XIM Firmware. Based on the information above, I suspect that box will be blank. This means that the ECU soes not "see" the XIM through the CAN network. The most likely cause of this is improper connection of the Gray CAN connectors.
    Here's how those should be connected: There are two Gray CAN connectors from each device (XFI and XIM), One male and one Female from each. A male from one device needs to be plugged in to the female from the other device. This should leave one unused male and one unused female connector total. It does not matter which device the male or female come from. What does absolutely matter is that you should have the male and female terminating resistors (these just look like end caps) plugged into the unused male and female connectors from the devices. These terminating caps have 120 ohm resistors inside them that must be in place for the CAN network to function correctly!
     
  10. RylisPro

    RylisPro New Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    I might try that dip switch configuration as that is the first time have ever heard of that before so I'll give it a shot.

    In my first post I wrote that the CAN stream enabled box is checked and that the CAN connectors which are gray with yellow and green wires are connected and terminated properly. I have even went as far as check continuity on the yellow and green wires from one end of the XFI blue 31 pin connector all the way to the XIM 30 pin connector.

    I have called FAST about this and they were stumped to why I have RPM signal but no XIM RPM signal? From what little I understand is that they are supposed to be the same value. Chris at FAST said he would sit down with an engineer and get back to me.

    At least I know what the problem is!
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Fastmanefi

    Fastmanefi Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2011
    Location:
    Sonora, CA
    David
    I asked him to send me the ECU Config info and the XIM Firmware field says: XIM1_12
     
  12. Lance

    Lance Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Location:
    Central MI
    FYI, The CAN Stream Enable checkbox is irrelevant to CAN communication with the XIM/EZ-LS, EZ-TCU, EGT module and Accelerometer module. The CAN Stream Enable checkbox is only intended for use with the Dash Logger and supported third party products. It won't be an issue to have it on but it's not used unless you have the Dash Logger.
     
  13. TurboNova

    TurboNova Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Location:
    Lake Havasu City AZ.. but mostly travel tuning
    Not sure if I would call this steady. 50-67 is a large swing. Maybe if it stays at the 65-67 after running. Sounds like it needs some firmware upgrade to the XIM.
     
  14. pbp1

    pbp1 Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    XIM firmware is WAY out of date. This is the reason you dont see XIM Sync or XIM RPM. The ability to read those through the XFI was added as part of later firmware releases. You need to update the XIM Firmware to 21B. This could also be the reason that it will not run. I am not sure that the Gen III Hemi strategy existed in the firmware that you have?
     
  15. RylisPro

    RylisPro New Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    Ok how exactly do I update the firmware?
    The funny thing also is that I called FAST yesterday to ask about any firmware updates since I bought these boxes a while back and they said there weren't any?
    [​IMG]
     
  16. RylisPro

    RylisPro New Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    Ok making some progress...
    Maxwell from FAST was able to help me update my XIM firmware to 21B.
    With that I now have:
    XIM RPM = RPM
    XIM sync = 32
    CamSync BTDC = 61, 63, 65, 71

    XIM sync only happens when I set it to the 36-2-2 crank pattern dip switch setting.

    I only get some booms from backfires though, no start yet...

    Maxwell said to mess with the cranking fuel table and see if I get any luck
    [​IMG]
     
  17. RylisPro

    RylisPro New Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    I tested spark just to see if all my spark plugs were working and now I got a weird symptom.
    Half the wiring to the coils are not firing, but the weird thing is it's in a pattern:
    1 = no spark
    8
    4 = no spark
    3
    6 = no spark
    5
    7 = no spark
    2

    I checked again and the dip-switches inside the XIM are 11111101.
    I tested the coils/ spark plugs and they all work when connected to the wiring that does fire.
    I have NOT changed any wiring or firing order or anything like that.
    When I tested spark before with a spark tester, spark was present on all 16 coil leads

    Anyone have any insight on this?
    Thanks
    [​IMG]
     
  18. gtsman

    gtsman Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2014
    This sounds like a cam sensor error, verify that your cam sensor is set a "minimum" of 10deg before your crank sensor. Your crank sensor should be either 50 or 54deg BTDC ( depending on which type of trigger wheel you have ), but might be off a little. So I would set the cam sensor for at least
    20deg before your crank #s, like 70-80deg BTDC.
     
  19. Lance

    Lance Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Location:
    Central MI
    This is normal. With the HEMI Eagle application selected, and to keep from missing crank pulses when the engine transitions (accelerates) from cranking to running, Some cylinders are not fired until the engine starts. You might notice this when checking spark during cranking but in actual use, you'd never know it.
     
  20. pbp1

    pbp1 Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    The firmware you have is quite a few years old, so thecnically, there is not an "Update", it just that firmware 21B was introduced years ago and has been running reliably since. If you called me and asked me if there was an XIM firmware update, I would say no, but I would also let you know what the most current version was. I just happened to catch it in your last post and realized that it was pretty old stuff.
     

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