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Pump whine.but only when engine turned on!

Discussion in 'FAST Support Forum' started by neilferguson, Nov 21, 2011.

  1. neilferguson

    neilferguson Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Location:
    NSW,australia
    The pump on my ez efi system is making a very loud whine when the engine is running. I tested the unit without the egine and no whine whatsoever. Ran it for some 10 mins without the engine and also used this to set the 43 psi( without vacuum). Within a very short while wth the engine on ...the noise returns..and it is loud. Any suggestions?
     
  2. TurboNova

    TurboNova Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Location:
    Lake Havasu City AZ.. but mostly travel tuning
    Sounds like the pump is sucking air. Where is it mounted?
     
  3. Denis

    Denis Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Location:
    Mendocino County, Northern Calif
    Could be a voltage issue, when the engine is running the voltage will be higher and the pump will tend to make a little more noise.
     
  4. neilferguson

    neilferguson Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Location:
    NSW,australia
    Brian....It is mounted below the tank and adjacent to the tank ..but draws its flow via a line which goes up the side of the tank and then down into the tank near the sender ....so it does need to prime and syphon. The tank is 50% full ....but why should it be OK without the engine running and then whine when it is?.....I run a 1974 jeep CJ6 fitted with a 302 windsor. When I wiggle the pump feed line hose (3/8inch as provided with the master kit )I do get a change in the whine ( though it does not go away.
     
  5. neilferguson

    neilferguson Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Location:
    NSW,australia
    Dennis..will check all connections again and the voltage to see ..but the whine is not a 'little more noise'..I can here it when I am driving ..very loud.
     
  6. Denis

    Denis Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Location:
    Mendocino County, Northern Calif
    The way your pump is mounted can have a lot to do with how much noise is transferred into the vehicle.

    The factory mounts inside the gas tank are the quietest. because the pump noise is isolated from the frame of the vehicle. If you are mounting the pump to the frame consider a rubber isolator between the pump and frame or pump bracket and frame. I believe Summit has them and they will help.

    Pump noise will increase as the voltage goes up and that could be what you are hearing.
     
  7. neilferguson

    neilferguson Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Location:
    NSW,australia
    Denis..checked connections and volts and all OK. tried loosening the pump from the frame and insering ruuber to see if any noise reduction..no effect but will tru using noise insulator mounts. My car is a soft top jeep and the pump is mounted on a rear section of the heavy chassis so i don't believe this noise ampification is the issue but I will take it alll the way to check.
    The noise nows exits whether the engine is running or not.

    Brian . See my last comment on response to Denis above. I .have run 3 separate tests on the pump without engine running to see if it is pumping Ok .I broke the circuit pipe at three places ( at pump discharge, just before rail ( ie no press controller) , and in return line after press controller . Flow in all cases was clear and substantial without evidence of aereation. Flowrate was about 2.8 litres a minute in last two locations ( slightly slower in last location in return line). I am thinking of installing a priming pump to supply about 1.5 psi to the EFI pump suction. Any advice/comments?
     
  8. TurboNova

    TurboNova Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Location:
    Lake Havasu City AZ.. but mostly travel tuning
    Most pumps have what is termed as a pump head.. That is the draw it can pull into the pump. The farther away from the tank the harder it is to suck, the distance is what is the problem on the suction is. Most people think that having the pump at or below the bottom of the tank is the place to mount the pump but that also causes the pump to have to pull from inside of the tank up and around to get to the pump, that is really hard for the pump to do. When I mounted mine, I put it above the tank as close to the line coming out of the tank as I could.

    Also pump noise will get louder with higher voltage like when the alternator starts to charge the pump will actually speed up.
     
  9. neilferguson

    neilferguson Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Location:
    NSW,australia
    Brian... I was somewaht surprised at your answer.I am totally aware that each pump has an NPSH requirement and the brochure on the Ez pump advises that it should be located 'low so that it is gravity fed'.I did just that and your suggestion is contrary. I am a professional engineer experienced in designing process and piping/pump systems.
    I have two fundemental problems..
    ....The unacceptable screaming banshee from the pump..
    ....The loss of power etc after driving for a few km (..and especially uphill.)
    I believe the noise problem is the pump having to suck over the top of the tank even though the pump is below the bottom.
    I believe the power problem can be one of two things...
    There are no baffles in the tank so sloshing could be starving the pump and hence the injectors ..it is shallow and wide. It could also be the quality of the rev input.
    I am going to do all the following after extensive reading of EFI installations on older cars.
    I do not want to bugger around inside the tank so I am going to install a high rate low press pump ( PD type ) to suck from the main tank and deliver to a surge tank located midships under the floor . This tank will be of 2 to 4 litre capac. and the hp EFI pump will be directly connected to near bottom of the tank and therefore have no work to do on the suction side, ie Npsh easily satisfied, and then flow to injectors. The return line from the injectors will go to this surge tank as well ....and the surge tank will have a return to the main tank. The surge tank will operate at near atmos pressure. A range of these tanks are on ebay but I will get one tailored most likely to get as large a capacity as possible . Routing the return to the surge tank means less flow duty for the small pump connected to the main tank.

    In addition to ensure a belt and braces approach I have ordered a MSD 6A spark box to use for RPM input. I have also ordered the pump. . It is a dissappointment that FAST totally ignore many of thesepractical issues in their over simpistic installation details ( all in 3 to 4hrs..yushkkkk). I intend to sound isolate the surge tank from the car and also the pump will be mounted on the tank and I will sound isolate the pump from the surge tank . If the FAST pump is still noisy I will shitcan it as noisy rubbish and get a Bosch.

    I need the tank anyway ( sloshing )so think above will all help ..Any commenst truly welcomed .
    PS I have still not received the replacement MAP sensor FAST promised or any delivery advice whatsoever (despite chasing them ) to send after initial problems ..they are very very slow to react. Luckily I ordered one from Amazon in US and received it last Monday.....a truly FAST service. Their follow up is pretty pathetic
     
  10. neilferguson

    neilferguson Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Location:
    NSW,australia
    A supplementary to the above....the FAST installation bumf includes a 'IMPORTANT TECHNICAL BULLETIN" showing it is WRONG to spot the pump high and CORRECT to have it below bottom of tank and shows it sucking up and over the top of the tank. This is precisely what I have but it creates a unacceptable loud whine...a banshee!!
     
  11. Webby

    Webby Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Location:
    Southampton UK
    Loud whine from pump usually due to cavitation in the pump. This is usually caused by the feed to the pump having too much resistance for the pump to be able to suck enough fuel. i.e. too small or blocked etc? This will damage pump, also fuel pressure will drop especially at higher revs and could damage engine due to weak AF mixture.
     
  12. neilferguson

    neilferguson Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Location:
    NSW,australia
    Webby...think you are right and my solution with the surge tank etc above should solve all the suction problems. The pump is lined up exactly as per the FAST instructions and with a full bore suction as per pump suction size. if it does more than whisper after all the surge tank work then it gets 'sh.tc..ned' as a piece of rubbish and I will put in a good make, Bosch .
     
  13. Webby

    Webby Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Location:
    Southampton UK
    I have a similar surge pot system on my vehicle.
     
  14. neilferguson

    neilferguson Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Location:
    NSW,australia
    Webby...I am awaiting parts for the new tank/pump arrangement ,,can you advise...
    What size surge tank did you use? ( mine is to be about 3 litre ).
    Did you route the return line from the injectors to the surge tank ? and then a combined separate return line from the surge tank to the main tank?
    Did it solve the pump whinge problems with the FAST supplied pump? or did you get another pump?
    Did you wire the small extra pump in parallel with the efi main pump or a separate supply?
     
  15. Webby

    Webby Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Location:
    Southampton UK
    Yes I ran return from injectors back to surge pot and then a return to the tank. I still have the original FAST fuel pump. Pot size sounds about right. However you should make a restriction in the return line to the tank in order to create a very small amount of pressure in the surge pot. I used a carb pressure regulator set at about 4 psi. (it must be set at less than the low pressure pump can provide in order to get vapour/air out of the system)
    I must add that I run a rear engined race car and that I installed the system to remove air/vapour from the fuel system which gets in under high G loading in corners etc. I have since experienced a problem with the fuel getting very hot and evaporating from the surge pot when I stop the car. (tanks and surge pot are unavoidably close to hot parts of engine) Here is a link to some info

    http://www.kinsler.com/Cat_32_Pgs/Cat_32_4_09_Pg_115.pdf
     
  16. neilferguson

    neilferguson Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Location:
    NSW,australia
    Webby..Many thanks...your comments have been very useful for me..now have the surge tank and fitting it. I will follow your advice re the return line restrictor. ..a return linerestrictor came with my priming pump so will use that initially. One further query...did you use a common electrical supply from the EZ unit for both pumps?
     
  17. neilferguson

    neilferguson Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Location:
    NSW,australia
    Well..after installing the surge tank etc etc..the bloody pump still screams. It has the worlds best suction conditions but is a rubbish product so into the 'sh..can' it goes (from whence it came).. I have bought a Bosch to replace it . Advice to all considering a Fast EZI kit...don't bother with the pump kit..the pump is crap and the hose is pretty nasty as well ( I put it an aluminium line )......
    ..and there is zero assistance from FAST!!!!! Much better quality out in the market.
     
  18. neilferguson

    neilferguson Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Location:
    NSW,australia
    I have an APOLOGY to make to FAST etc. Before I installed the new Bosch I removed the inlet filter from the FAST pump body and it was partially blinded by flakes of plastic ( look like hose lining ) which it must have picked up during pump/hose installation( the tank was spotless ) ....so I re-installed the FAST pump and it is working fine and nearly inaudible.....
     
  19. Webby

    Webby Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Location:
    Southampton UK
    Whoops never mind we live and learn!
     
  20. Caprimaniac

    Caprimaniac Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2011
    Webby. If you route return from fuelrails direct to fueltank, the temperature would be owred. Even better- install a fuel cooler after the fuelrails. alWill do wonders. Even your hp- numbers might see some benefit. Smallish air to liquid oil cooler is ok
     

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