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Ready to Fire for first time with EZ 2.0, BUT...

Discussion in 'FAST Support Forum' started by kpanza, Aug 21, 2017.

  1. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    So, my older brother came out from AZ this weekend to buy a truck I found him, and I asked him if he'd help me continue the install on my K5. Happy to say, that over two afternoons, we got all of the fuel system installed and all of the wiring harness installed and hooked up. Wow! Long time coming! I had swapped intake manifolds last month, and got the dual sync dist in also, new header gaskets, etc.

    So, after carefully checking all of our wiring connections and fuel lines, reading the FAST directions a couple times, we lit up the handheld and we started the Setup Wizard. All was going to plan until we tested the fuel pump system! Oops, two connections were not quite tight enough, got a little fuel leaking. Found the offending fittings, tightened them up, and no more leaks! Initially, the handheld showed "current" fuel pressure at 31...but my brother was watching the gauge on the regulator, and it was reading much lower, like 23? We checked for more leaks, but all was dry. So, I turned the regulator clockwise, and we got to 36 handheld, turned a bit more, right at 43 psi! Yay. However, the mechanical gauge reads 34?? We ran the test probably 10 times total (checking repeatedly for leaks, finding none)...was always exactly 43 on the handheld screen, 34 on the mechanical gauge? After the 10 seconds of fuel pump running, it would shut off, and fuel pressure would drop quickly, I assume that is normal (am running an in-tank pump, with RETURN system. Fuel pressure on the handheld read 3 psi several minutes after the pump turned off, never saw it at 0? (mechanical gauge was at 0 at that point).

    So, I read another thread with very similar issue - do I just go with the handheld pressure reading and ignore the mechanical gauge? The fuel tank was emptied and cleaned about 6 months ago, fuel is treated with ethanol treatment...shouldn't be anything in the filter (I guess I can check if you recommend)...motor has not been run yet at all with FAST kit.

    Also, if you read this AA - you had recommended the following for my initial setup:

    At 9.7:1, you're going to need to start with your total timing at 26-28 degrees, and watch the heat line on the side electrode. Start with all-in slope at 4000. Initial will be 20-22 degrees with your cam. That cam may not make enough vacuum for good operation of the EZ EFI 2.0. EZ systems need at least 10 inches of vacuum at idle in gear.

    I started with 22 initial, 28 all in mechanical, slope all in at 4000rpm. I did not get to the A/F ratios pages, I stopped at the fuel pump test since I wanted to ask about the large difference b/w mechanical gauge and handheld psi readings. I so wanted to try to fire it up, but my wife was wanting dinner and we didn't have time to roll the truck out of garage to try firing it. Next weekend I hope! Are these still the recommended settings to try at first?

    After reading all of the electrical horror stories, I hope we will avoid them. ECU is mounted way over on the driver's side inner fender, several feet from the distributor, even farther from the MSD coil and 6AL box. FAST + and - wires directly to battery via the side posts (no other connections there). Pink wire is connected to the Painless stock Fuel Pump circuit, we did not install the 82pf diode (but I do have it).

    Hoping for the best!
     
  2. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    That's an 82 PF capacitor... I'm a little concerned with your differing fuel pressure readings. Depending on where you mounted the filters, you could have a filter that needs cleaning with some DAWN detergent, or similar, and flushing and blowing dry. Don't worry about returning to the Wizard. You can go into the Advanced menu and set the TPS and fuel. On first start, you can also set the IAC calibration in the Advanced menu - and also check you have the Ignition Type set to FAST Distributor there.

    Sounds like you're just a short hop skip and jump from a first start! Good luck.:D
     
  3. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Yes, it's an 82pf capacitor, sorry for calling it diode...remember seeing it labeled as such on the bag. Ok, I will check the filter...could it really be that clogged with a dozen quick 10 second tests? I'll pull it apart and check.

    The in-tank pump has a strainer filter on it (brand new), the in-line filter is on the passenger side inner fender, about 6" away from the pressure sensor (order from tank is 1) filter 2) pressure sensor and housing 3) TBI unit (front inlet port) 4) rear outlet port to regulator (where actual mechanical gauge is), then return line goes back to tank.

    Now, one oddity we experienced, which I don't think has anything to do with it, but who knows? The regulator unit was NOT as pictured in the FAST instructions that came with the regulator. As pictured in the instructions, if you are looking at the regulator, the FAST logo is in view, there are the left and right ports for running from the TBI (for your return line, blocking off unused side). Then, they show the 1/8" vacuum port on the RIGHT side of the unit...however, my unit had the 1/8" vacuum port on the LEFT side! We guessed that they either machined the FAST logo on the wrong side, or they drilled the vacuum port on the wrong side?? So, I carefully removed the 4 allen screws, and simply reversed the top of the regulator housing (now you can't see the FAST logo, but the vacuum port is on "correct" side and facing the TBI). I didn't want to run the vacuum hose in a big 180 degree loop to get it to the TBI, so I reversed the top. I was careful to get the spring seated and evenly torque down the 4 allen screws...could there be something amiss there??

    I was thinking of getting another gauge at the parts store and make sure it isn't the FAST gauge...

    Hoping to get a friend to come over and help with initial start up, and need to burp the radiator, as had to drain all the coolant to swap the intake manifold...gonna be busy checking the timing, warming up engine and eye on radiator, all while checking for any fuel/vacuum/coolant, etc leaks! Hopefully it goes smooth!
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  4. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Lol, who knows about the regulator FAST sent - they could have changed suppliers. I wouldn't worry about the regulator so long as it works and holds some pressure after the pump is off. When the pump cuts off, they usually drop to 20 about PSI and bleed of slowly from there over ten to fifteen seconds to a very low reading - just on average. Your change to it shouldn't be a problem.

    If your filter was between the FAST electronic gauge and the regulator, that would account for a higher electronic reading than at the analog gauge - if the filter is restricted. Yes, the filter has very little surface area, and it takes very little to restrict it. The tank sock still lets very fine particles through. If it is a problem and continues, Aeromotive has a much larger 10 micron paper element billet filter that easily replaces the small FAST filter. Be sure to check the factory tank atmosphere filter/vent is clean and working - it can allow fine dirt to enter your tank. From your post, none of this seems to be a problem. Sometimes, new regulators have to be reset several times. But, check for any line restrictions from the electronic gauge to the regulator - they can be internal and hard to spot.

    Assuming one of your gauges is inaccurate, you'll need a known good fuel pressure test gauge to find out which one. An auto parts should be able to check this for you. I would trust the electronic gauge handheld readout for setup, and drive to an auto parts for a pressure check before replacing a gauge.

    Let that engine breath and light up those exhaust pipes! There may be mice in them after all this time.:)
     
  5. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    haha!! There could be all the animals of Noah's ark in there as long as this has taken!

    I'll watch the PSI bleed down closer tonight, but I think it did as you describe...went from 43 quickly down to 20s, then made it's way down to 3psi...I remember thinking, "Why isn't it 0psi" after it's been off for several minutes, but figured it was ok. The regulator seems to be working fine...when we first tested it, it was reading 31psi at HH, then adjusted upwards to the 43psi. That's a great idea...I will call my parts store and see if they can test this FAST one...he has a nice Auto Meter one, but rather keep the $40 in my pocket if possible.

    The filter is BEFORE the electronic gauge, which is before the TBI, which is before the regulator. Or at least I think so (isn't the electronic gauge in the black aluminum housing?) I would think if the filter were blocked, the electronic gauge would be affected also? I assume there shouldn't be any pressure drop between the electronic gauge all the way through to the regulator/mechanical gauge?

    The tank vent is brand new (had to get a new sending unit), with new hose, and new rollover vent mounted up higher than the tank (if I roll over offroading, the vent closes and doesn't allow fuel to flow out - although I highly doubt my gas cap will do the same! haha)

    We cut the fuel hoses with sharp knife, didn't use cut off wheels or anything dirty. I "guess" there could be some stuff in tank, but I drained it completely at the beginning of the year, vacuumed out any dirt I could see, wiped it down with fuel soaked rags, vacuumed again...it appeared pretty dang clean. Yeah, the sock on the fuel pump isn't great, but it's new also.

    I think I'll see if they can test the gauge...sure seems suspect.
     
  6. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Sometimes the inner rubber will separate and "lip" over at a connection to cause a restriction. Even tiny pieces of unseen rubber at cuts can become a problem.

    The electronic gauge is in the aluminum housing mount. You could also separate and reconnect that electrical connection several times to be sure nothing has corrosion affecting its operation - it has been sitting open for a while. A small dab of electrical (dielectric) grease there is a good idea also.

    I only believe one of your gauges is reading incorrectly, but you need to be sure fuel pressure is at 43 PSI and no higher. Sounds like you've been thorough.

    I think I just heard Walter Mitty say "Turn the key".
     
  7. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    So, I guess you learn something new every day! In frustration, I bought a new Auto Meter gauge on way home from work...but told myself I wouldn't open it til I checked out the fuel filter and re-check for any leaks, etc. After confirming filter was clean, no leaks (confirmed that 15 times last night, but what the hell?), I grudgingly opened the $46 Auto Meter gauge package. I glanced at the instructions, and noticed a note about "if your readings don't seem accurate..." Basically, there is a tiny valve on the top of the gauge, covered by an elastic band. You are to open this valve to let the gauge adjust to your specific atmospheric pressure...so, I went back and looked at the FAST gauge - there was that tiny black rubber grommet my brother and I had seen last night - but we didn't want to screw with it, and figured it was just a seal to allow for filling the oil in the gauge face! Well, I popped that little seal off, and heard the faintest of air whooshing...I pushed the seal back in, and connected the FAST handheld, booted up the Wizard...I ran the fuel pressure test again, and wouldn't you know it, it read about 44-45psi (handheld says 43, but I'm sure neither is dead nuts - I'll call that good!)

    AA, your point about the regulators needing to be reset a few times seems accurate - when I tested the fuel pressure via the handheld, it was now showing 40psi, not the 43 from last night? About a 1/4 turn of the regulator got me to 43 on the handheld screen...tried it about 5 more times, watching the mechanical gauge and the screen...consistently 43 on screen, 44-45 on mech. gauge.

    So, I think it's go time! Looking like Saturday if all goes well! Dang work! Dang babies who go to sleep after dinner! haha Oh well...
     
  8. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Yup. Good catch on the plug - that's also where they put the glycerin in. Leave it to Auto Meter!

    Here's how my willpower worked years ago. If I thought I was near to finishing, I would work all night, shave, shower, get dressed and go to work with no sleep. I would do that as much as three days in a row before races. The old ticker can't take that these days. Many times in the past, I've come home from work and completely freshened an engine for a weekend race. I even went to sleep in 30 degree weather under one of my cars once, after tightening the last bolt on the pan. Still had a ratchet wrench in hand - sound asleep. A wonder I didn't freeze, but I was racing only hours later after the wife found me and got me up. With all the aches and pains I have now, a little willpower then would have done wonders for me today.
     
  9. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Well, nothing is ever easy for me, and it continues with the FAST system. After I put in a new hub seal in my rear 14bolt axle to fix the leak (been sitting so long, it's mad at me!), I cleared everything out of the way in the garage and let the K5 see the light of day! Out into the driveway, let's start this beast! First crank, nothing...ah, remembered that my brother and I had disconnected the coil wire at the coil. Hook it up, crank, I get a little "we're trying", but no start. Third try, it "ran" for about 5 seconds, but very weakly, and died. Lots of cranking, no fire after that...occasionally a very weak gurgle, and little puffs out the throttle body. Drat! So, I start checking wiring, grounds, everything is good...made sure the LED that shows 12v+ while cranking was on, it was...all LED lights checked out, saw orange lights firing off and on...

    So, my wife finally gets back home, and I have her crank while I watch the timing light...nothing going on! I grab my second timing light, nothing. What the eh? After she went back to the baby inside, and a few choice words, I put the timing clamp on the coil wire...luckily I have no windshield in truck yet, so I can reach over and crank, watch the light...nice steady blinking light from the coil wire. So it must be in the distributor, huh?

    I had used the "non-powered" setup to set the Dual Sync...should I try the powered setup with the LED lights now that I have all wiring hooked up? I have the dual sync controlling timing, is set up in the Wizard to Dual Sync...I hooked the Brown "Points" wire from harness to my MSD's White wire, the Crank Trigger and RPM input wires are not hooked up per the directions. The Distributor plug is plugged into the Dual Sync, and the red wire is hooked up to power the distributor.

    Any suggestions? I didn't get to pull the cap, it was so late already and I had to push the truck up the driveway a couple inches at a time! My back is shot! Pushing a 6800lb K5 up a driveway sucks! I need this thing running! Help! haha
     
  10. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    How do I test to see if the module in distributor is still good? When we did all of the wiring last weekend, there was NO battery power connected during the whole process. And I had previously installed the dual sync using the "unpowered" setup instructions about a month ago. When we finally hooked up the battery cables to do the Setup Wizard and check the system, could we have damaged the module? I never disconnected the coil negative wire (although the actual coil cable from the dist cap to coil was disconnected until today), didn't think I had to since I used the non-powered setup of the dual sync? But reading and re-reading the distributor manual that came with the dual sync, they mention unhooking the coil - to avoid damaging the module. I guess I will unhook the distributor connector tomorrow and see if pins look amiss? Love to figure this out...
     
  11. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    If the Dual Sync is working, you should be able to see the LEDs light during setup. If the sensor is working, the orange lights on the ECU should be flashing as you turn the engine over.

    Sounds like the distributor timing is off. Pull the cap and check for number one firing position alignment. If you have firing at the coil wire, the Dual Sync is working. Check the plug wires, rotor, and cap for a problem.

    Check phasing. The module should be in the "0" position.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
  12. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    AA, I feel pretty stupid, but you learn from mistakes, right? I knew I had the engine at TDC, and on the compression stroke (watched those rocker arms dozens of times now!) Since the symptoms pointed towards problem with distributor (I checked cap, rotor, etc, all seemed fine, and the various LEDs on the ECU all did what the manual said they would) or timing. Well, as I retraced my steps, I sent a picture of the timing tape on my balancer to a friend...turns out, I put the tape on backwards! Doh! The tape only had hash marks for the degrees on one side, and since they would have been "covered" by my pointer tab, I figured they must go on the front side of the balancer (so the BTDC numbers were rising to the "left", not the "right" as he said they should be!)...but I always wondered why the numbers appeared "upside down" as you were looking down at the tape. So, in setting up the dizzy at the 30 BTDC, I was actually 30 degrees retarded, 60 degrees off! Yikes. So, I will get a new tape and correct my gaffe. Sure wish I'd had one of my experienced engine buddies there the day I put the tape on! At least the TDC mark is correct! haha

    So, I am gonna pull the dist and set it up following the cam and crank LED procedure. Hoping that will get her to run!

    They make a big point of making sure to disconnect the "negative coil trigger wire"...is that just the wire that hooks to the negative post on the actual coil canister? Just unhook it from the coil? Or do I need to disconnect something else? According to the wire colors in my dual sync harness, I have the NEW version, so I should first see a red cam LED, then a Green crank LED as I rotate base CCW? Seems simple enough. Engine is at TDC right now. Just remove dist and put it in pointing at #1 on the cap, then start slowly rotating base?

    I am also going to move my MSD box ground to engine block, not the body ground I am using currently.
     
  13. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    If the Dual Sync was in the TDC position when you set the distributor, you shouldn't need to pull it. Just be sure the rotor is pointing to number one on the cap on the compression stroke. You can check this easily by removing the #1 plug and holding your thumb over the plug hole to feel the pressure as you turn the crankshaft by hand or bump the engine with the starter.

    Then follow the FAST EZ EFI 2.0 instructions (page 27). If you have to pull the distributor and reset it, just disconnect the negative battery terminal before you start. You can connect the negative terminal back once the distributor is installed again. As long as the distributor module is set to 0 degrees, all you need is to be sure the rotor pointer is centered to the cap #1 on the compression stroke at the TDC mark. You'll be very close to the Wizard set 20 degrees initial and can set that perfect by either using the ECU Wizard menu control, or just rotating the distributor slightly, to get the Wizard set 20 degrees initial on the handheld in agreement with the 20 degree balancer mark using a timing light. I normally just rotate the distributor. Use the Wizard for initial setup. You can use the Advanced menu later to make changes after the engine is running.
     
  14. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Ok, I removed and I re-stabbed the distributor pointing at #1 on cap after rolling engine to TDC...just to start fresh. I disconnected the coil neg. wire and popped the cap off the dist. I hardly had to rotate the base CCW much at all to get the Green Cam LED to light...cool. I then slowly rotated CCW, didn't have to go very far at all, and got the Red Crank LED to light...I went back and forth a few times, and got it to right where the LED lit...tightened the lockdown and put the cap back on. It seemed like I barely had to rotate it to get the lights to come on, so of course I question myself...

    I also moved a ground strap from the passenger head to the driver's head, and it is connected to frame (chassis). I have a ground strap from firewall to passenger side of block also, and the Batt Ground cable is to passenger side head.

    Is this the noise filter (think I've seen guys refer to "chokes") that is recommended for the MSD ignition box wiring? https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/msd-8830/overview/
    I also read it can be helpful to twist the red and black wires going to coil to help with noise suppression? The only thing I didn't get to tonight (I have to do this quietly, after putting baby to bed, as he sleeps right over the garage!) is to relocate the MSD box ground to the block instead of the common ground I have underneath the dash (gauges, lights, etc). I have not installed the 82pF capacitor on the Pink wire, I figured I'd wait to see if had any issues with the handheld?

    I am hoping to finally get her to run tomorrow night if I get time!
     
  15. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    That's the capacitor for the MSD ignition box power wires. Yes, you can put a twist in the coil wires - just connect them with the correct polarity. Yes, you may not need the 82pF capacitor.

    Just be sure you set the distributor to #1 on the compression stroke. Otherwise, the timing will be 180 degrees out.
     
  16. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Definitely on the compression stroke. New timing tape will go on tonight, I'll order up on of those capacitors and twist the coil wires. Maybe I can try to fire it up before the baby goes to sleep! :)
     
  17. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    There you go!
     
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  18. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Yeehaw! After a few screwups and learning processes, she runs! After putting the new timing tape on correctly, I tried to start her (had set up the distributor with the LEDs the other night, motor at tdc)...but got backfires. Frustrated, I yanked the distributor, put the motor at 30btdc and followed the page 27 instructions again...lined up #1 and buttoned everything back up. First crank, she's running! Yay. So, I had to burp the radiator (first time she's run since installing the single plane intake) and was looking for leaks, smoke, etc...all seemed good. Nice steady idle (although pretty high, like 1050rpm?), came up to operating temp and once radiator was done burping, I shut her down. Lucky I did, because here comes the wife, saying the house is smelling like exhaust! Oops...since I didn't want any part of having to push the K5 up the driveway again if it didn't start, I did all of this in the garage...I guess the door wasn't closed at tight as I thought...so that was the end of running it tonight...was about time for baby to go to sleep anyways, so I'll try to get some timing checks and follow the instructions on setting up other stuff like IAC and things...I'll also try to get a pic or two of the Master Dash so you guys can see if anything amiss? And check to make sure no vacuum leaks on the intake...

    What a great feeling when she was purring along...I never touched the throttle, didn't want radiator making a mess, hopefully I'll get time this weekend to try it all out!

    One question - since I have not actually COMPLETED the Setup Wizard, each time I go in there to run through the process, it makes me enter all of the info each time...is that just because I haven't finished the Setup and once I do it will be saved from then on?
     
  19. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Great! It Lives! I know that made you feel great after so long!

    Every time you enter the Wizard setup, it erases the previous tuning info. Use the Wizard to finish the tune. From there on, use the Advanced menu to make further changes. You shouldn't need to use the Wizard again unless the handheld information gets corrupted - just use the Advanced menu.

    Starting with good settings for the timing and A/F in the Wizard should get you going faster with fewer changes needed later in the Advanced menu - use 20 initial @ 4000 slope, 28 degrees total mechanical advance, 7 degrees vacuum advance @ 45%, 14.3 idle A/F, 14.7 cruise A/F, WOT 12.7 A/F. Then, make all other changes using the Advanced menu.
     
  20. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Thank you AA (by the way, my name is Keith, what is your real name?)! Yes, felt so good to hear her run again. I'll try to finish the Setup this weekend for sure...just need to find a couple hours of "me time!" haha Birthday parties, pool parties, my wife has our schedule packed as usual...grrr. I'll use those settings.

    And just so I'm clear...the distributor being set up at 30 degrees BTDC...but they want the timing on the balancer to be reading at 20 degrees BTDC? I've read your responses to other guys about rotor phasing vs. timing, but I'm not real clear on it all. So if I put the timing light on the timing tape, and it shows something like 15 or 25 BTDC, I simply rotate the dist base until it reads 20 on the balancer? Also, is the idle RPM adjustment (in the wizard I set it for 750rpm) something I do in the advanced menu? It was idling at little over 1000rpm last night?
     

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