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Ready to Fire for first time with EZ 2.0, BUT...

Discussion in 'FAST Support Forum' started by kpanza, Aug 21, 2017.

  1. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Keith,

    With the Dual Sync module in the "0" position, the distributor rotor to cap phasing is physically centered with the crank at 30 crank degrees BTDC. The physical distributor to crank timing is manually set to the "0" degrees position because that's what the ECU needs to see. The 20 degrees BTDC initial is then set electronically by the Wizard - as long as 20 degrees initial is set in the Wizard for the initial. 20 degrees initial is the default Wizard setting.

    You will later vary the handheld shown initial timing degrees slightly as you zero in the tune using a vacuum gauge and the Advanced menu. You want the highest initial timing that gives the steadiest idle. This significantly reduces header and engine temps. For your engine, you may not need to reset the initial. The default 5 degree "idle trim" manages the running initial shown on the handheld at idle from there.

    Don't let the engine build its fuel maps idling after completing the Wizard settings. Drive the vehicle. This will help build the maps correctly, more quickly, and will allow you to fine tune settings more easily later using the Advanced menu. Keep WOT at 12.7 - it is most probably exactly what your engine needs. Never take the WOT over 12.8.

    Alex
     
  2. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Ok, thanks Alex! Ok, so you told me to use the 20 Initial, so therefore when I use the timing light, I should see 20 BTDC on the balancer, correct? If not, I slightly rotate dist to get it to match the ECU?

    Ok, so I will try not to let the engine idle too much. But as I said months ago, the truck is not finished, has no rear driveshaft yet, I just move it around with it in 4Hi (front shaft needs lengthening, but it works for now). So, best I can do is putt down the street at low speeds...it will be a little while before I can do any real street driving. Now that it's running, I can work on finishing the shock mounts, etc, then get a rear driveshaft made.

    Is there a way to "stop" the learning until it's more streetable?
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  3. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    "Ok, thanks Alex! Ok, so you told me to use the 20 Initial, so therefore when I use the timing light, I should see 20 BTDC on the balancer, correct? If not, I slightly rotate dist to get it to match the ECU? "

    Correct!

    "Is there a way to "stop" the learning until it's more streetable?"


    There is no way to stop the adaptive leaning process with EZ EFI 2.0. That can only be done with XFI Sportsman, XFI 2.0 and the new FAST® XFI Street™. Considering the needed work - I wouldn't get on the street. Just move her in and out of the garage. Get those shafts made and installed before worrying about the maps. You might need a Wizard reset once safely drivable. You just won't be able to make any final settings and check things like plug heat range, best timing for your fuel used, or closer A/F settings.

    You should be good for now - until you get the rest of the other work done. At least it will sound good when you want to hear it - and you won't be having to push it around any more. Using a gas can will get old next.

    If that rear driveshaft is over 70" long, expect to spend around $300 for a new one. Shorter and the even shorter front shaft will be much more reasonable. I had my long bed '81 GMC shaft made for about $300 not long back. My transmission spline end was for the larger U-joints as well as at the rear end, and all good, so they welded a new 4" tube on new large joint 4" ends, installed new joints, and balanced it perfect. The shaft was several inches over 70" for my new short shaft TCI Streetfighter Turbo 350. At least it didn't cost as much as the new TCI stall converter. My old transmission had been a true long shaft Turbo 350 - that can no longer be found.
     
  4. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Alex,

    Ok, I got a couple hours tonight to play with things. After I got everything out from underneath, I fired her up (fired up right away!) and drove slowly out of the garage (it clears by about an inch with my tiny 29" roller tires!). So far so good...I parked her in driveway, it idled great and got up to operating temp (an aside: my FAST water temp sender is in the manifold, right next to t-stat housing, and my water temp gauge sender is in the block...my fans kick on right at the 195 indicated by the block sender...while the FAST sender is reading 172-ish on the HH...I assume not a big deal? The Victor intake only has the one port for a sender...) So I got out the timing light, and checked it on the balancer...was right at 15 advanced. So, I started fiddling with the dist and never could get it right on...so I used the HH to adjust it to the 20 advanced you suggested. Cool. I felt good, so I tentatively gave it some throttle...nice, very snappy. I gave it a few quick revs, was great!

    I then did the IAC calibration and got it in the green box...idle went down nicely to 750! Re-did the TPS sensor calibration, and finished the Wizard! Yay!

    Feeling perky, I pulled out of the driveway and slowly cruised down my street...hmm, transmission doesn't feel quite right? Mind you, it is in 4Hi, only doing about 10mph...so I came back and parked it, figured I'd better put the pressure gauge on the transmission to check for line pressures...took me about 15 minutes (motor is off after I parked in driveway) to find the gauge, then had to clean up the threads on the 1/8"NPT port...I finally get it on there, and I go to fire it back up...no dice. I got some pretty good kickback? Tried again...same thing. A few curse words later, I feathered the throttle while cranking and it started...but then I see the tranny is leaking at the fitting, so I shut her down again. It's now dark and my wife tells me she's trying to put baby to bed soon...grr. So, I unhook the pressure gauge, put the plug back in trans with some teflon tape, and pray it starts...it does. I hurry up and turn truck around, back in the garage and shut it off.

    So, from what I've read, seems like maybe my timing is bit advanced at idle? I set it up with what you gave me - 20 initial, 28 total, slope all in at 4000rpm. You also suggested 7 vac advance at 45%? Did all that at end of Wizard setup. Seems to start great when cold, but after it had run (was probably running for a good 30 minutes while I checked everything and drove down the street), I had the issue. It has a new battery, hi torque mini starter (with remote Ford style solenoid to avoid heat soak problems), 1/0 pos and neg batt cables, etc. Motor is 9.7:1. Only slight concern is that the gas is several months old (91 octane, treated with Ethanol stabilizer)...tank is almost empty, I guess I can try to put in some fresh gas and see if that helps? Running the return system, in-tank fuel pump, etc.

    Any thoughts? Should I try a lower initial timing?
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  5. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    I tried to upload a picture of my Master Dash, but it says file is too large. I'll have to wait until my wife can help me with re-sizing it, I never remember how to do that. I did notice that the MAP reading has always started at 106 (with key on, engine not running) - I am at sea level, right near the beach. When it was running, I have noticed it around 43-45? The screenshot of the handheld I have shows it at 45. AFR was 14.0, with target of 14.3, 750 rpm. 02 correction % of 0. IAC says 22. Coolant temp is 182, air temp of 109...load of 43, TPS % at 0. Fuel psi shows 37 (showed 43 at Wizard test each time?), fuel pressure duty cycle at 100%, injector DC at .7%, 4lb/hr. TPS volts at .3. Battery at 13.9volts, base timing at 20, Idle adv 0, Vacuum Adv 0, total timing 19.

    I'll try to get the picture uploaded. On a positive note, my IRM count is 0! (the first time I tried it was 255! Fixed the grounds and seems great now!) No codes. Learning and o2 LEDs lit green.
     
  6. Pfingstl

    Pfingstl Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2016
    Location:
    Denmark
    Sounds to me like you are on the right track.

    My MAP also reads 106 at sealevel. Should be ok. I do have a new MAP that I will install when season closes (mine did read 100 in the beginning and I am not sure if a backfire damage it. Car runs perfect so I believe things are fine.

    I had a bad ECU and that to some work to figure out - no "green" on learning - great help from the Forum and especially AA

    After some work my gut-feeling said ECU and in order not to have any down time I bought a spare unit. That worked and the old was replaced by FAST via Summit within a few weeks. (Overseas)

    I am very happy with the 2.0. Starts and runs great with very nice throttle response.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  7. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    All those numbers sound great! Like Jens said, "you are on the right track".:D

    Once you have the K5 driving, I expect you will need very few changes to the FAST system, if any!

    One thing, Jens needed a bit larger alternator for his sweet big block Corvette. I believe he has his idle down to 650 with his stock cam - and that dropped his voltage a little too low for his factory accessories, and was loading his battery too much at times. Your voltage sounds great at the 750 idle. That voltage will be fine as long as it stays above 13 volts with your lights and accessories on. You could also need an alternator upgrade if you want to go lower with your idle. Your FAST system will allow a lower idle even with more radical cams (both of mine have performance cams that required idle over 850 RPMs using a carburetor, but run at 750 just fine - even at 700 with the EZ EFI 2.0) . Jens went with the Powermaster 12SI, and it was enough to get him right up to par before any battery issues started.;)

    Depending on any light kits for your K5 and any added electronics, like stereo amplifiers, you might need a larger alternator. My '85 TA has a lot of factory accessories plus well over 1000 RMS watts of stereo amplifiers, and needed the more modern model GM style Powermaster XS CS 478068 200 amp alternator and a pulley upgrade (it has a serpentine belt March kit). This alternator has two circuit levels to compensate for output at higher RPMs - while providing more voltage and amperage at low RPMs. I did replace the interior and exterior running lights with LEDs to reduce the electrical draw. My '81 GMC Sierra Classic is loaded with all the factory accessories that came on them in '81. The factory alternator still worked, but after 35 years of use it needed replacing. A Powermaster 12Si 150 amp has its voltage staying at 14 volts with all the factory electrical turned on - air conditioner fan on high, all lights on, and a new Kenwood head unit with a 400 watt eXcelon amplifier. I did cheat a bit to keep the load lower by replacing all my running lights with LED lights on it also. Good battery life is just as important to your pocket as it is to maintain good voltage levels for the fuel injection system - something manufacturers never had to deal with so much using carburetors. Again, your voltage looks great, so your alternator output may be fine with your accessories on. This is just something to watch out for.
     
  8. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    I doubt the 20 degree timing is too high. If it was, there would be a slight miss now and then at idle and/or the starter would have trouble turning the engine over when hot. What may have happened is the default 5 degree idle trim compensation was on when you set the final timing. Use the Advanced menu to temporarily turn it off and check the handheld timing matches the balancer timing with a timing light. Then turn the idle trim back on - it retards and advances timing as the engine wants while running at idle. It could also be the fuel.

    Did you turn on the vacuum advance? Set it to 7 degrees @ 45 load%.

    Re-run the IAC and TPS calibration from the Advanced menu after this.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  9. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Alex,

    I upgraded to a CS144 alternator during my build. If I recall, it's the version GM used for ambulances, etc...large case, over 200amps if my memory serves correctly. Paired with a DieHard Platinum AGM battery, so I should be good on voltage.

    Yes, I set the vacuum advance to the 7 degrees at 45% you had specified. I will look at the idle trim compensation - but if it is "default", then yes, it would have been ON...I didn't change anything beyond what you had generously supplied me with!

    I am thinking it could be the fuel...after looking back at texts between a friend and I (he had come over to try to get the carb running better before I started the FAST conversion), I realized it was way back in December of last year! And that is when I put the gas in...now, I did add Stabil and Ethanol stabilizer, but the CA gas seems to suck. So I will get some fresh gas and add some octane booster as well...

    Ok, so for a newbie, would you mind elaborating on how I use my vacuum gauge to see what timing my engine likes at idle? My Victor Jr intake does not have any manifold ports, the only one I see to use is the second 3/8" port on the FAST tbi? The first one I am using for my PCV.

    Oh, and the MAP has read 106 at key on since I first got the electrical all hooked up...which was before I had the two backfires when my timing was way off (blew the rubber cap off the second 3/8" line), and MAP still reads 106 at key on...hopefully it is ok?
     
  10. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    MAP sounds fine..

    Good! You already upgraded! That's also a CS 144 in my TA. These are great alternators! The one I have just allows me to custom tailor voltages.

    Now, on to using the vacuum gauge! Get to an auto parts and pick up a "T" fitting and a cap. The cap will be used to plug the "T" fitting when not using it for the vacuum gauge. You have to use full-time vacuum!

    Do this with good fresh gas. The same gas you will be using with no additives :

    Watch the vacuum gauge as you change the initial timing in the Advanced menu. You want the initial timing as high as possible with a steady vacuum reading. Too much initial timing and the needle will fluctuate. Too little vacuum, and the vacuum reading will drop. For your engine, 18-20 degrees initial should be perfect. But, you may be able to get as high as 22-24 depending on how mild your camshaft is and the efficiency of the heads and exhaust. My '81 GMC has a performance cam with stock heads, and likes 20 degrees initial. My '85 TA has 195cc runner TrickFlow heads and headers with a Flowmaster performance exhaust, and a COMP XE280HR cam. It likes 24 degrees initial, but will tolerate as much as 28-30 degrees of initial idling on the vacuum gauge. Keeping the initial timing high also keeps the exhaust manifold temps from getting too high and improves low RPM torque. It also improves fuel mileage.

    When you find the highest usable initial timing, check for any part throttle ping in gear. If you hear any part throttle ping under load, pull the initial back in two degree steps until the part throttle pinging stops. That's all there is to it.

    Once it's all dialed in, you may notice the lbs./hr. lower to .006 or slightly less at idle.
     
  11. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Alex,

    Yes, they are great alternators! In years past, I had used a couple Powermaster 200amp 12si versions, but they didn't last as long as I would have liked...just asking too much from an old design...

    Ok, I will get the T fitting and more caps (I keep a couple spares in my glove box)...is the T fitting going to go in-line with my PCV? Or am I running a length of tube from the un-used (presently capped) 3/8" fitting at back of TBI? I'll get the new gas this week, my gauge was getting low today as I had it running for another 20-30 minutes as I checked line pressures in the 700R4 and fiddled with the timing...I turned off the idle trim as you suggested, then went and checked my timing again...was still right at 20...so I turned it back on and re-did the IAC and TPS...I had noticed just the faintest of idle hunting, from like 750 to 800 or so, but seemed to smooth out after I completed the IAC and TPS calibrations.

    Question - let's just say that I did want to use an initial timing number OTHER than the default 20 degrees initial...do I just go into the timing menu and enter that number (let's just use 24 as example), then go to the distributor and rotate until balancer reads 24 also? You say to just change the timing # in the Advanced menu and watch the gauge - how many degrees can you/should you change the timing with handheld alone? No need to touch the actual distributor at all anymore?

    My camshaft is the Comp 12-242-2, I have Trick Flow 195cc Kenny Duttweiler heads, headers and custom, mandrel bent dual 2.5" exhaust with H pipe and Magnaflows.

    Hopefully I can start getting the suspension dialed in, make the shock mounts and get those on, then have a rear shaft made so I can drive it on street. As soon as the roll cage is finish-welded, I will get the windshield back in and hopefully be ready to start getting the system to learn!

    I never did get to try the "hot start" today...I had it running, then my dad showed up to help babysit and I put the truck back inside so I could spend some time with him and my mom...I'll try it again this week to see if any more kickback issues.
     
  12. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    The old fuel could have been responsible for some of the idle hunting.

    The "T" can go on any line that gets full manifold vacuum. On my TA, I actually have a PCV fitting with the "T" on it. That's the one I use as it's very accessible. I plumbed the PCV into the front drivers side billet Trick Flow valve cover.

    With that cam and those heads, you should be making some good power. You would have found some more if you had used a hydraulic roller. My 406 small block makes just over 500 horsepower. Mine is a full roller motor with stud girdles and everything but the kitchen sink thrown in. Your setup should power your K5 very nicely - and get better mileage than I have. My TA is a real pig when it comes to fuel. I think the '81 GMC does better.

    If you add or subtract anything from the Initial timing or total timing, all you use is the handheld. When you used the timing light, you just let the ECU see TDC more accurately. The ECU has to see TDC, as it's the ECU that sets all the timing. You just keep the distributor locked down from now on. I usually make a reference mark on the distributor base to the intake - just so I can set the static timing faster if I ever have to remove the distributor.

    Your engine may like a higher initial timing number, but use the vacuum gauge to find it, whatever it is.
     
  13. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Ok, great! I will hopefully find some time this week to try the vacuum testing. I have the PCV in same location as you, driver's side front of valve cover. I'll get some new fuel also.
     
  14. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Alex,

    So, I was working on other truck stuff, rebuilding the tailgate innards, etc, and moved the truck outside...started no problem. It was on maybe a minute, and I shut it down so I could work in the shade of the garage. Couple hours later, I went to start it, and twice it cranked, then kind of kickbacked (nowhere near as violently as last week)...no backfires, but both times it caused smoky gas fumes to come out the air cleaner? I went into the handheld, showed no codes or anything...I remembered I had reduced the timing last weekend to 18 initial (to see if it would eliminate the hot start issues), and so I put it back to 20 initial. Next crank, it fired up (kind of stumbled at first) and ran perfect. ??? I left it running so I could check the trans fluid, which was low...that was one of the items I had forgot to re-check after the truck was running again! Put two quarts in and still needs a bit more. I parked it in garage and called it a day (wife waiting for dinner!)

    Do you think it was just the timing? When it runs, it runs great, throttle is super crisp...but having issues with start up it seems? Weird how it started fine in the garage, then couple hours later it didn't?
     
  15. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Oh, and it now has fresh fuel (added the fuel AFTER it was outside the garage, BEFORE the start up issues). I also found my header bolts were a bit loose the other night (might have had something to do with last weekend's idle surge?), so those were tightened a few nights ago. It's been a few heat cycles, glad I checked them.
     
  16. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Hey Keith,

    Yes, those header bolts will loosen after a few heat cycles - always a good idea to periodically check them That could have also been the cause of the surge, but I still believe it was the old fuel according to the handheld readings you listed.

    A few things to check - be sure the ECU to wiring connector is only lightly tightened. It doesn't take much for a good seal. Being too tight can cause an intermittent problem with some units. Check the connection is a good solid one from the ECU points output wire to the ignition box points input wire. Check the ECU pink ignition power for a good solid connection and a solid 12volts during start. Also check the phasing rotor is still set where it was, and is tight. One of these is likely the problem. Remember, once the key has been returned to the off position - all codes clear.
     
  17. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Ok, I will check those things. My brother tightened the ECU wiring connector, and he tends to overtighten things! That will be my first check. The ECU points wire is good, has good solder and shrink wrapped...I will re-check the pink ignition power wire for solid 12 volts during cranking (connection is also solid with good solder and heat shrink. I'll check on the phasing rotor...haven't looked at that since I made sure it was on the "0" position.

    Thanks for suggestions, hopefully one of them will do it!
     
  18. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Ok, I checked a few things. 1) The ECU wiring connector was not very tight (I now remember yelling at my brother to NOT tighten it too much!)...I barely had to back it off to get it loose, and I just turned it maybe 1/2 turn past finger tight. Don't think it was that, but should be fine either way now. 2) Checked the rotor phasing, it was set at the "0" position. I wouldn't call the screws holding it down "tight", so I gave them just a tad more snugness...I did notice something that looked odd - the top of the distributor, the plate under the rotor, it had quite noticeable surface rust on it? Is that normal? I took a pic, but I'll have to get my wife to size it correctly for me tomorrow...it says it is too big to upload. I also noticed slight carbon tracks on the distributor contacts.

    The ECU wire to points wire connection is solid soldered joint, I don't think it is that. I am going to trickle charge my battery before the weekend. Sitting as is, not running the vehicle, battery was at 12.5v. Seems ok, but that's NOT a fully charged battery (needs to be 12.6v). I'll have to watch that. It's a good quality AGM battery, but it may need some trickle charging after all this sitting around. I'm also still waiting for my dang Ground terminals to get here, so I can finish the new Battery Ground 1/0 cable - I have been relying on a backup 2 gauge ground wire, it is not optimum! I am going to try a voltage drop test on that ground cable, I bet it is causing some unwanted resistance!
     
  19. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Just to go over the phasing - I keep forgetting you have a Dual Sync, and was thinking about an MSD adjustable phasing rotor - the MSD is bad about the cap adjustment screws getting loose and messing up phasing. With the Dual Sync, be sure the upper housing isn't moving any in relation to the rest of the distributor locked by the intake clamp - it's a two piece housing, but shouldn't move. Be gentle checking it.

    The ECU connector screw tension sounds good. Even at 12.0, battery voltage should not cause a run problem. But, you really should use some type of BatteryMINDER to keep the AGM fully charged. I have a 13 year old Odyssey PC 1200 MJT, that was in my TA, that still shows brand new voltage levels after 24 hours sitting idle (over a 100% charge capacity). I can only attribute that to the BatteryMINDER I always kept connected when the TA was parked. After all those years, I put a new PC 1200MJT in the TA and moved the old one to a 1957 Ford 600 series WorkMaster tractor I have. The red color and size of the battery matches the Red Tiger engine and battery compartment nicely. I keep them both on BatteryMINDER chargers when they aren't in use - I have a BatteryMINDER on all of my vehicles - and I haven't needed a new battery on anything in years.

    That surface rust seems to have appeared very quickly, but may be normal. I would just wipe it off with some WD-40.
     
  20. kpanza

    kpanza Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA

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