Welcome to CPGNation.com! Log in or Sign up to interact with the CPGNation community.

Rough running EZ EFI 1.0

Discussion in 'FAST Support Forum' started by Yadkin, Aug 23, 2016.

  1. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Yes, I don't use RTV (even high temp) anywhere near an exhaust header. RTV High Temperature is only good for 700 degrees Fahrenheit. Temps there can far exceed that. The ceramic header coatings are good for 2500 degrees and stay put. The problem is not just heat burning them away, but the fact the header flanges move on the head during operation - just like heads move on the block during operation.

    Aftermarket tube headers really do need a gasket. Cometic has an .030 stainless steel gasket that might work for you. There are also some .040 copper gaskets.

    You do know it is alright to reshape and ding headers for clearance where needed? The jigs used when building them aren't always perfect. Even baked on coatings can distort them some.

    I have a 1970 1/4 mile nitro methane drag car, I built new '71, that has special big tube crossover headers that I really had to work hard on just to install them - even down to reshaping the underbody and steering drag links for clearance. Before I worked on them, there was zero clearance anywhere - and they were custom built for the car on a jig by a manufacturer. Other cars have also pretty much always required some tweaks for any headers I used on them - some more than others. I had to notch the frame rails and rework the transmission shift rod linkage on my automatic '81 GMC to gain clearance for its stainless steel headers. These are just things you run into with aftermarket headers - even very expensive ones "designed for the vehicle".
     
  2. Yadkin

    Yadkin Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2013
    Location:
    Yadkin Valley, NC
    Makes sense. I just looked at Sanderson's site- they now recommend 1/8" bead of RTV black. Apparently they are relying on ash to make a seal :D

    Yesterday I ordered that Hot Stuff from Speedway, along with a new set of ARP 12 point bolts and new copper collector gaskets. This will sit in a box until the RTV copper blows out.

    These headers were a bitch to install but they do have 1/8" clearance on both sides. On the passenger side, the rear tube to the chassis. On the drivers side, the rear tube to the power steering box at the front tube to the chassis. You can't put them on or take them off with the engine in place. And you can't install the engine with them in place. You have to have the transmission unbolted and lift one side of the engine while the one already on gets mashed against the opposite side...
     
  3. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    The Hot Stuff doesn't have a very long shelf life - so don't let it sit around too long. You might like to use it to touch up your headers or exhaust if nothing else - before it sits too long.

    Yep, your Sanderson experience sounds just like what I've always encountered with almost every tube header set I've ever bought. Good luck!

    ;) At one time I used to cheat - there was a local header shop I would trailer cars to, with the headers, for them to install. Custom header work was all they did, and they did excellent work that always looked factory professional, but charged multiples of hundreds on each install. It was still worth what they charged. They would also build any custom exhaust style - but that was over a grand per. Wish they were still around.:(
     
  4. Yadkin

    Yadkin Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2013
    Location:
    Yadkin Valley, NC
    Once the cruise-in season is over I'll have time to redo this and use the Hot Stuff.

    Building custom headers can't be too easy. Doesn't surprise me that a shop like that would be few and far between. We have an excellent exhaust shop here- Scott's Muffler in LExington NC. He's nearing retirement though, works M-TH only and only takes jobs that he want to do. He likes old trucks and classics.
     
  5. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Actually, the guys that worked in the (now gone) local header shop made it look easy. They could fabricate, install the custom headers, and have multiple vehicles ready for customers in under a day. Since I sent my vehicles along with the headers I wanted installed, they left them sitting until they had time away from their custom fabricated installs. I never visited that shop that they weren't loaded with work. The owner did have trouble keeping a full crew of good people though. Their parking lot stayed so full, I had to pick my vehicles up the day they were finished or pay quite a lot for storage. Mine were always ready in 2-3 days. All their business was by appointment only Monday-Friday. I remember once bribing one employee with a case of beer to open up Saturday so I could get one of my cars. When I went there with him, the car was still unfinished. But he finished it in minutes, and I was on my way to a race. I still remember his name, and the '56 Nomad Delivery he had - I was about 30 at the time.
     
  6. Yadkin

    Yadkin Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2013
    Location:
    Yadkin Valley, NC
    I believe this to be the last piece of the puzzle. I tried very hard to keep my original air cleaner, but the size of it brings it over the top of the distributor, and in spite of some minor metal work it sat right on top of the tall MSD unit. I didn't want to cut and weld, so found one from Billet Specialties that goes with the overall theme. 1.jpg this
     
    A A likes this.
  7. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
  8. Yadkin

    Yadkin Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2013
    Location:
    Yadkin Valley, NC
    The OE cleaner can't be raised any further without hitting the underside of the hood. I've done the clay test and it's very close now, as I had to raise it with the new intake. The only way that I can use it is to take a notch out of it, which would be above the factory seam on the front side. I don't have a welder, so would have to pay my buddy Mike to do it, the time and cost of which I can't justify since this new cleaner works well and looks nice.

    I'm experiencing a problem with warm starts. I've got "cranking enrichment" at 2 and it starts perfectly, but stumbles when the idle speed goes down from the high setting (only about 5 seconds) to the normal setting (700). If I hold the throttle to around 1000 rpm for 30 seconds or so the engine idles perfectly. Is there a way to extend the high idle time out?
     
  9. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Probably best to keep the original air cleaner stock and put away safe somewhere. They have worth.

    You've repaired and improved so much, you may only need to do a Wizard reset and input back all of your current settings.
     
  10. Yadkin

    Yadkin Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2013
    Location:
    Yadkin Valley, NC
    Last two tank fulls I achieved 14, then 14.2 mpg. Previously I was lucky to get 12.
     
  11. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    That sounds very encouraging! It should come higher if you can add a few degrees more vacuum timing without detonation or pre-ignition.
     
  12. Yadkin

    Yadkin Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2013
    Location:
    Yadkin Valley, NC
    Does MSD offer an adjustable vacuum advance canister? I can't find one on their web site.
     
  13. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    They offer two different ones, but I'm not sure if either is adjustable. I don't think they are. Crane and ACCEL used to have them and there were other aftermarket replacements. You'll just need one that fits. I believe the MSD uses the same style as GM used.

    https://www.msdperformance.com/search/?q=vacuum canister

    If my memory is correct, one of the MSD canisters is six degrees and the other is ten. It may be a standard HEI adjustable canister you need.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017
    Yadkin likes this.
  14. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017
    Yadkin likes this.
  15. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    After looking at what I think is your distributor, you may want to keep the present canister and change to a one step lighter spring on one side. You'll need to do this carefully to be sure your timing heat line stays centered in your sparkplug side electrodes. You'll also want to be sure you see no signs of pre-ignition/oil spotting on the plug ceramics.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017
    Yadkin likes this.
  16. Yadkin

    Yadkin Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2013
    Location:
    Yadkin Valley, NC
    Thanks. I'll try this first. Super busy at work but have an open weekend coming up!
     
  17. Yadkin

    Yadkin Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2013
    Location:
    Yadkin Valley, NC
    The one that comes with the Ready-to-run is 6 degrees (12 crank degrees).
     
  18. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    The degrees on them are rated at "tip-in" (low RPM vacuum)- They actually provide much more advance as the vacuum increases at higher RPMs. Higher engine loads drops that vacuum for less advance. That's what makes the adjustable ones easier to work with. You can set more degrees of advance to come on earlier in the RPM range - which can greatly improve fuel mileage.

    Ford used a different method on some of their canisters. Those use washers of different thicknesses inside to limit the number of total advance degrees provided, and different spring pressures to change "tip-in" degrees. At Ford, we could calculate this mathematically. But, it was often easier to just make changes in the field as needed - as each vehicle will see different engine loads due to weight and driving styles

    If changing the mechanical advance springs lighter causes any issue, you might still want an adjustable canister. Using them, it usually takes only two to four turns from the factory setting, in the proper direction, to raise "tip-in" vacuum degrees for better mileage. The trade off is too many "tip-in" vacuum degrees can affect idle quality.
     
  19. Yadkin

    Yadkin Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2013
    Location:
    Yadkin Valley, NC
    I was wrong, wrong-o. Distributor vacuum advance is 6 degrees at 1" vacuum, linear curve to 16 degrees at 12" of vacuum.

    Let me see if I have the rest of this correct.

    Mechanical advance should start to add around 1500 rpm and be "all in" at 3400 rpm. See chart A below (2 silver springs). The black bushing limits the mechanical advance to 17. Total advance is 34 degrees.

    Therefore initial advance is 34-17-6, or 11 degrees. Add in vacuum during idle and I've got 11+16-10=21 degrees.



    scan0001.jpg
     
  20. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Total mechanical advance should be about 18 degrees with the large black bushing installed - don't change this. Your distributor should be set up with the two heavy silver springs from the factory for all in mechanical slope at 4200 RPM (those charts appear off). By removing one of the heavy silver springs and replacing it with the next one lighter than it, all-in slope will be about 4000 RPM. You don't want to lower slope too much or you will get into pre-ignition and detonation with today's pump gas.

    9 degree distributor (black advance bushing) mechanical advance = 18 degrees
    18 degrees plus 10 initial idle degrees (vacuum unplugged) = 28 (fine for regular gas with no additional vacuum advance)
    Total vacuum advance at high vacuum is much greater than the low vacuum advance of six degrees.
    18 plus 10 plus 6 = 34 degrees - engine loaded
    With high vacuum, the canister supplies 22 vacuum degrees - 18 plus 10 plus 22 = 40 degrees total advance at high vacuum.
    (your engine should be able to accept 40- 44 degrees without problem, as advance is only this high under very light load).
    Since 16 of the 22 (16 + 6) vacuum degrees only occur while the engine is under light load, detonation and pre-ignition is mostly held under control as long as the mechanical or mechanical slope isn't excessive and the canister vacuum load per cent design isn't too high.

    It's just a balancing act. But, you have to get the mechanical timing right first.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
    Yadkin likes this.

Share This Page