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Should adaptive learning come on at Idle? EZ-EFI 2.0

Discussion in 'FAST Support Forum' started by killswitch, Jan 2, 2019.

  1. killswitch

    killswitch New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2016
    Just want to know if the adaptive learning feature should activate at idle before the car has been driven. I am mocking up the build and want to be sure the ez-efi system is working properly before I modify (tailor) the wiring harness to the car. The system seems to be erratic and sometimes unstable, but if I play around enough with the settings I can get it pretty happy. two things though, I have never seen the learning light come on and the handheld unit keeps losing coms with ECU especially when the engine is not running but tends to reboot once or twice when trying to get to the live data screen when running.
     
  2. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Yes.

    You have electrical issues that must be corrected first.
     
  3. killswitch

    killswitch New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2016
    Thank you for quick reply, I have been reading about capacitors that should be installed. Do you have any recommendations?
    All main power leads go directly to battery. Pertonics Digital HP and ECU
    50ohms per foot MSD plug wires
    I will try to separate the soft power leads to two different switches if you think that will help?
    Anything else I can do? I'm not sure what else could be wrong.
     
  4. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Pertronics doesn't work well with FAST EZ systems.

    All primary and secondary wiring should cross at 90 degrees with none parallel to the other. Primary ECU wiring has to be away from the distributor and other wiring. ECU should be distanced from other electrical components. The ECU main power wires must attach directly to the battery terminals. Other ignition component power and fan power needs to power and ground away from the battery terminals.

    The pink ECU ignition on wire is where the capacitor goes - one leg to the wire and the other leg to a good ground. The cap should rated above 18 volts and around 86 Pico Farads. The Pico Farad value will vary due to the frequency range you have causing interference.
     
  5. killswitch

    killswitch New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2016
    Great advise and thank you.
    I will reorganize the wiring and separate primary from secondary and from EFI harness.
    May I ask what issues the pertronix ignition box cause? In your option this is a "must change" part to MSD? Is the MSD digital 6AL the best choice (don't want buy a third box if not)?
    How do I find out what frequency range capacitor I need for pink wire. Is there a cap you can recommend that most use?
     
  6. killswitch

    killswitch New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2016
    I hooked up a spare MSD 6 box I had, moved all primary wires away from secondary, there were not really all that close and crossed at a 90. Moved pink wire to it's own separate switch wired to battery, only wire close to secondary wires is fan switch but it also crosses at a 90. Check the locked timing and looks rock solid (I would say the Pertronix was a tad jumpy but not that bad.) Connected the handheld w/o extension cable. Still no learning light.

    almost impossible to set IAC in the window but I can get IAC around 30 at idle but it still wonders around. Guessing its due to 8 throttle blades? Maybe learning at idle wont work if IAC numbers are off?
    IDK, the FAST tech blew me off with "Well you really need to drive it for the learning to start" but I can't do that until the car is finished. If that is the case, so be it but I'd really like to get this right before the body goes on.

    I guess the only thing to do is the capacitor. I will try and find one at a radio shack and install it.

    If the capacitor doesn't resolve it what else can I do?

    Specs:
    EZ-EFI firmware version 121
    351W with 8 stack Individual TB's (Flow synced at idle)
    8 - 45Lbs injectors
    Fuel pressure 43
    O2 Cor 08-10 sometime lower or higher.
    Idle vacuum 15
    Idle set 1000
    CTS reading 185
     
  7. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    The MSD 6AL is fine and doesn't need to be replaced.

    Experimentation will show which capacitance value is needed. Mica, paper, and ceramic types all work fine. You don't want an electrolytic can type.

    FAST tech is fairly lame now. They expect you to already be proficient at their fuel injection before you install the system. The system will go into learning mode sitting still running in the garage with the engine temp at 140 F. It can't build best performance fuel maps until you begin driving the vehicle. You need the idle set to 750 - the cam size doesn't matter, but it does need to make at least 10 inches of vacuum at this idle. What cam and compression do you have? Correct intake is a single plane. Otherwise, there will be cylinder fueling issues. Problems sometimes seen from the factory, with the FAST system, may be a bad O2 sensor or a bad handheld. Be sure the O2 sensor has no leaks in the exhaust stream and you have a full exhaust installed. Error codes erase if you turn the key off after an engine run. So, read them before turning the key off.

    Be sure to do a Wizard reset three times and then input all user data and adjustments. Start with WOT @ 12.5, idle A/F at 13.5, cruise A/F @ 14.1.
     
  8. killswitch

    killswitch New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2016
    The MSD 6AL if off my engine run stand so I will need to replace it. Will the MSD Digital 6AL work?
    Comp Cam Hydro roller 230/236 @0.050
    Intake is a Speedmaster 8 Stack with 45lbs injectors
    10.5:1 compression
    O2 in header collector and no leaks
    I will try a 3x wizard reset and get idle down to 750 and see what happens. Maybe the 1000 rpm idle was the issue the whole time.

    Thank you again for the helpful advise!
     
  9. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    MSD Digital 6AL is fine.

    What is the cam number? If this is an Extreme Energy model, it will be difficult to tune with due to the smaller lobe separation causing lower idle vacuum.

    You may need a Sportsman ECU. The Sportsman ECU is a direct swap in to the current wiring and has no idle vacuum limitation. It also allows for turning off the adaptive learning with manual transmission vehicles.

    I have a COMP HR Extreme Energy cam with 230/236 .050 duration in a small block Chevy 406. It is right on the edge of the EZ EFI 2.0 vacuum limitation and was very difficult to get under control with this ECU. I did get it correct at 700-750 RPM idle, but MAP runs 62 idling in drive (automatic trans). MAP @ 65 is "limp home mode" for this ECU. This engine uses the 2.0 TBI and makes over 500 horsepower @ 9.7:1 compression running Trick Flow "fast as cast" 195 runner heads.

    Your compression makes for more difficulty. !000 idle RPM is only part of your issue. This engine will need to flow very well to have enough vacuum for the EZ 2.0 ECU. You'll also need an automatic with a stall speed of 2500-3000.

    You may want/need FAST to maybe help you out with a change to the Sportsman ECU. They sometimes offer a discounted Sportsman ECU in these cases - if you call and explain the problem.
     
  10. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    I strongly recommend you change to the XFI Sportsman ECU with your 351 Ford.
     
  11. fabr

    fabr Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2017
    He posted he has 15" at idle. Why would he need a sportsman?
     
  12. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    That was at 1000.
     
  13. fabr

    fabr Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2017
    I'll bet he still has plenty at 700-750 as well. Why not wait till he lowers idle before suggesting he needs to spend more money for an upgrade till he sees what vac at a lower idle he has? For that matter,he needs to get the other gremlins fixed before he even considers any upgrade.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  14. killswitch

    killswitch New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2016
    Thanks guys and yes, the 15" was at 1000 rpm, plus this is a 5 spd manual. I will lower the RPM today and measure the vacuum then.
    Nowhere on their website does it warn against EZ-EFI in manual trans application. Why does AL not work well with a manual trans?
     
  15. killswitch

    killswitch New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2016
  16. killswitch

    killswitch New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2016
    13" or MAP at 050 750RPM no learning still. I know this is a manual trans but ECU can't know what the trans is at idle when in neutral.

    Could ECU need firmware update?
    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  17. J.K.

    J.K. Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    Before I switched to a sportsman ecu I also had the 2.0. The original camshaft I ran in it had a map of 70-75 range at 950 rpm. Swapped the cam out so it did 60-65 map at 750 rpm. Also a 5 speed manual. With both cams learning still came on regardless of the map reading. Only recently something happened (which I couldn't figure out) that caused learning to not come on at all. Sent the ecu in and was told the software somehow got corrupted. They just reflashed it and all was well again.

    But I did make the switch to sportsman now. I think you'll find that the issue with manual transmission will show itself in between gear shifts. Mainly the 1-2 shift when normal cruising. At least it was for me.

    FAST tech figured it was a combination of low idle vacume and manual trans in my case. They said there are people running them on manual trans with no issues, although he said these people also had higher idle vacume. Maybe there's something to that...I'll find out I guess. Mines in storage now due to winter.

    Also my handheld frequently gave me a comm error reboot when selecting the main dash board. I had set the main dash board as default start up screen, but sometimes at key on I would get the home screen. At this point if I selected the main dash again is when it gave me the comm errors. I also sent the hand held in together with the ecu and they reflashed both and claimed it wouldnt give me that comm error anymore.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  18. gremlinmt

    gremlinmt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2013
    Assuming you changed the idle target to 750, you'll still need to close the throttle blades a bit so the IAC number is closer to 20. Do an IAC calibration and get it in the green zone.
     
  19. killswitch

    killswitch New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2016
    I think I am having issue with IAC not metering as it should. I tried closing all 8 blades and still am having issue keeping at 750. I have a FAST remote IAC from another build. I am rigging now to test.
    Thank you all for this great input.
     
  20. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    One of those capacitors should stop the rebooting. As J K mentioned, you probably need the to send in the ECU and handheld for repair.

    TPS isn't set correctly - should be at .3 volts at idle. TPS .7 is far above range for idle. The idle A/F is also too fat at 13.0 for pump gas or race gas - reset it to 13.5 and work from there one tenth at a time.

    Other readings that are off are the inj. duty cycle - should be .7 at 750 idle. Fuel lbs. per hour should be 2-4 at idle.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019

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