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SOLVED (ECU) - EZ-EFI 2.0 not "Learning" ?

Discussion in 'FAST Support Forum' started by Pfingstl, May 30, 2016.

  1. Pfingstl

    Pfingstl Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2016
    Location:
    Denmark
    And here a shot on the Freeway cruising around 50 - AFR ??

    Thirsty car !!! At least half a tank on 30-40 mile drive to work and back.............

    Made a stop on the way home and Error on Handheld - Engine ran but screen restarted 4-5 times before it stayed on.

    Popping as soon as you ease of the Throttle........

    I still haven't tried without the extension cable, and believe I have to reset and start over:
    Find maks. Vacuum degrees
    A/F settings - Any recommendations


    IMG_5483.jpg
     
  2. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    The voltage being low can cause erratic operation. Your reading could be off, but it is still lower than it should be at 12.3. The battery voltage should actually be somewhere between 13.5 and 14.8 with the engine running. Your battery is actually discharging at 12.3. Your factory alternator was a 40 amp. The standard today is 100 amp and higher.

    In order to raise the voltage where it should be, there are a number of things you can do.

    1) Raising the idle will increase alternator output, but you may not want a higher idle for any number of reasons.
    2) Installing a smaller alternator pulley will increase output at lower RPMs, but it must be sized to prevent too many alternator RPMs at higher engine RPMs.
    3) You can try the ECU pink wire direct to the battery. If the voltage on the handheld rises above 13 volts with the engine running, you should install an ignition relay to provide direct battery current to the ECU Pink 12v "ignition" wire. This "soft" wire input turns the ECU on and off, but it also provides the voltage reading on the handheld.
    4) Install a higher amperage alternator with the correct size pulley.

    I experienced low voltage similar to yours, but it didn't stop ECU learning at my handheld reading of 12.3v. That doesn't mean it isn't causing your "learning" problem. I had a PowerMaster 150 amp 12Si (GM style) installed in my Trans Am, and it could not provide the proper voltage (13.5-14.8) at my idle of 700 RPM. It only supplied the correct voltage at an idle of 850. The reason was all my added electronics - stereo and amplifier, dual radiator fans, plus all the factory power windows, lights, air conditioning and heater fan, etcetera.

    My solution was installing a new PowerMaster XSvolt CS144 200 amp P/N #478068 alternator (late model serpentine belt GM style). This same alternator, although having a larger housing, may bolt into your '71 Corvette with few modifications. It only requires one wire to operate, but the optional four pin connector P/N #127 provides several optional XSvolt features - of which I use two. I use the red wire on the connector to maintain a steady voltage output of 13.5-14.2 - as read at the handheld. I use the brown with a red stripe to control a dash mounted "idiot" light (what was my factory "engine" computer light).

    There are two of these later GM alternator styles - CS130 and the CS144. The earlier CS130 has lower amperage, but also has a smaller frame/housing. GM developed both of these alternators due to the higher amperage needed at low RPMs in their modern vehicles. This could be the solution to your problem. But, in any case, you do need more voltage/amps at idle if your battery volts is below 13.5 with the engine running and your vehicle electrical accessories on.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
  3. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    At cruise, the system should be learning with those numbers. Check for codes with the engine running.

    Turn on enough vacuum advance to get your combined total to 38 degrees. Your Vette should be able to take 32 degrees @ 3200 plus 6 degrees of vacuum timing. The added timing will improve fuel mileage and shouldn't cause any ping. You can experiment with adding more mechanical first to find ping, backing off the mechanical slightly from where you found it, and then turning on the vacuum and experimenting with it. You want the most timing possible - without experiencing any ping or detonation - for best fuel mileage.

    I'm tempted to think the O2 sensor isn't right somehow. If you can, I would swap an equivalent one for the EZ EFI 2.0 system in. Also, check the pins and connections at the ECU closely. I had one ECU that didn't work correctly if I snugged the retaining bolt in the connector. Left slightly loose, the ECU worked fine.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
  4. Pfingstl

    Pfingstl Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2016
    Location:
    Denmark
    I know the alternator isn't at its best.

    Voltage isn't rock steady, but normally +14 when driving.

    No idiot light in the Vette so you have to rev it to activate the alternator (have tried to connect idiot light in the engine compartment and that works)

    I am planning a new alternator - 100 Amp - but have been unsure about 1 og 3 Wire. Just replaced the Amp meter with an "original" looking Voltmeter in the dash. With fans, FAST hooked directly to the battery amp was always "negative".

    The original alternator is an i10 ? I did read your other post regarding your alternator. I will try to get a new one ASAP.

    Your suggestion regarding the CS130 or CS 144 with XSVolt feature could be the solution - (with homemade idiot light to activate the generator?)

    Thanks again for all the nice input !!!

    Jens
     
  5. Pfingstl

    Pfingstl Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2016
    Location:
    Denmark
    I have the Dual Sync Distributor.

    Setup without Vacuum advance (Standard settings)
    20 Degree idle - 17" Hg
    34 Degree maks at 3200

    Will try to set ignition with Vacuum as per your instructions.

    CODES - haven't seen any codes yet - but I haven't looked for codes while driving.

    O2 sensor - any details/brand if I would try to source one in Denmark??
     
  6. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Yes, the standard alternator in '71 was the small 40 amp, some came with a 60 amp. The idiot light connection doesn't activate the alternator. With your amp gauge on the dash, I wouldn't bother with the light connection. - it's not needed. The PowerMaster 1-wire alternators come with a different regulator installed that requires no connection anywhere but at the rear terminal. Using only the one wire, the PowerMaster 12Si does have to reach 1000 alternator RPM initially before charging starts, thereafter it doesn't require that much RPM to keep outputting. Using it as a two-wire, the PowerMaster 12Si doesn't need to reach 1000 alternator RPM to begin charging output.

    The XSvolt CS144 is the best - with it, you would only need one wire of the correct gauge connected to the rear terminal and charging starts immediately. The red wire on its four pin connector only confines proper voltage and amperage output to a narrower parameter. The PowerMaster XSvolt CS144 has internal switching to produce more amperage (and stable voltage) at low RPMs without producing too much at higher RPMs - extending its life. One of the added option wires on the four pin connector, used with a switch to ground, lowers the alternator output to add a few horsepower for racing/high speed acceleration - and will allow the user to raise the voltage output for higher voltage racing batteries.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
  7. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    You would need to get a call in to FAST to be sure about the O2 equivalent part, but a parts store may be able to find a correct interchange for Bosch or some other brand. I would do the alternator upgrade first, as you could have some strange frequency problem going on with the one you have - that is affecting ECU learning. The new alternator will definitely prolong the life of your battery. With the batteries I use at $300 here, I won't take a chance of loosing one due to an alternator.

    Changing the sensor is really just a shot in the dark at the problem. But, possibly helpful in your situation.
     
  8. Pfingstl

    Pfingstl Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2016
    Location:
    Denmark
    Some feedback from FAST !!

    A A - seems you might be spot on with the O2...... And in the process of getting a new alternator :)

    What's a "lighter test"? and how is it done?

    XXXXXXXXXX
    Hi Jens

    Thanks for the updates. You know, what I am realizing going over our e-mails is that the more and more you drive it, the leaner it gets. And this generally can point to a bad o2 sensor or an exhaust leak close to the sensor. You could try removing the sensor and doing a lighter test to see if it leans out. Or if you just want to change the sensor here is an equivalent part number you can use to source one locally (BOSCH P/N 0258007206). After you switch the sensor out go ahead and do the full factory reset again so we can start off fresh.A faulty o2 sensor can prevent it from going into the learning phase and as mentioned before the leaner and leaner conditions really throw a red flag to us and that sensor. Let me know the results.

    XXXXXXXXXXX
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
  9. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Lighter test would probably be this:

    With O2 sensor disconnected from the exhaust, but still connected to the ECU cable, use a lighter flame against the nose of the sensor to check the reading is varying. All of this done with the key on so you can read the handheld. You should be able to vary the O2 reading by moving the O2 sensor in and out of the flame.

    This is very unusual, but I guess it is possible for a new sensor to be bad. Sounds like FAST may have sent out a bad batch of O2 sensors. Hopefully, the new sensor will get the ECU in learn mode. The new alternator will still help your battery life considerably - and give you the ability to install a larger sound system for those driving tunes. My tunes are all from the 60's and 70's. Nothing quite like some Steppenwolf to set the stage for some drag racing. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
  10. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Here are some alternator help links you might like:
    http://powermastermotorsports.com/which_alternator_a.html
    http://powermastermotorsports.com/faq-alternators_a.html

    GM CS and XSvolt info:
    http://powermastermotorsports.com/093__CS130_Alternators.pdf
    http://powermastermotorsports.com/013___DelcoXSVolt.pdf

    When you install the new O2 sensor be sure to reinstall the timing numbers you have now - after the Wizard reset. Also, use very little anti-seize. You don't want it to poison the new sensor.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
  11. Pfingstl

    Pfingstl Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2016
    Location:
    Denmark
    Powermaster recommended 12Si P/N 47293 (Natural Finish) and to buy from Summit. See they have black, chrome and polished versions.

    It's made for 1 or 3 Wire use - i guess it's plug and play with the original 3 wire setup?

    Heavier wire from the generator to the battery/starter needed due to higher AMP
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
  12. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    The 12Si may be all you need, but it doesn't produce as much amperage, at low idle RPMs, as the CS144. The 12Si 47293 is the same 150 amp alternator as the chrome model I removed from my Trans Am. But, my TA not only has dual electric radiator fans with a full compliment of factory electronics like power windows, mirrors, driver seat, lights, and headlight motors - it also has a 1400 RMS watt stereo amplifier system that pulls a lot of juice. I used #6 cable with the 12Si and it was fine with my 200 amp CS144 upgrade. I did have to re-clock the CS144, and you may also need to clock the 12Si for proper alignment - but PowerMaster provides all the instructions in the box.

    The 12Si is 'plug and play' with your three wire setup, and about 1/2" smaller in diameter than the CS144. The 12Si is still has a little larger frame than your factory alternator. If you engine has the long upper tension alternator adjustment arm, either is an easy fit. Be sure to use the included instructions to get the proper size alternator pulley. The included pulley isn't always a good match for making enough low RPM amperage with factory engine drive pulleys.

    If you find the 12Si isn't quite large enough at night with your lights on, some of the new LED lights might solve the issue. I recently installed my 12Si 150 amp in my '81 GMC - and took some of the load off of it by changing my running lights to LED.

    Go with the natural or polished finish. The chrome always starts getting bubbles after a few years due to heat.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
  13. Pfingstl

    Pfingstl Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2016
    Location:
    Denmark
    AA - Thanks again for the always detailed information - Thumbs Up !!!

    Something just came to my mind - ENGINE OIL - I use "old school" oil with Zinc additive to protect the lifters.......

    Could this affect the O2 Sensor??
     
  14. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    You're welcome. Don't worry about the oil. It won't affect the sensor any more than any other oil - until your engine wears out and a lot of it starts passing the rings and valve guides. That shouldn't happen for a long time.

    I do recommend using full synthetic oil after engine break-in, and those with ZDDP additive like Royal Purple. I use Royal Purple synthetic in my diesels as well. COMP 159 is also great to have on hand for use with oil that doesn't have the zinc additive at an oil change. The benefits of synthetic far surpasses standard oils in engine life and power output. I saw the benefits first hand in a fleet of heavy over the road trucks I once owned - fewer starter and battery replacements in cold weather, much longer engine component life, and longer drivetrain life when used in power dividers, transmissions, and rear ends. Using synthetic in drivetrains also doesn't just mean less wear, but fewer worries about mixing sulfur based and mineral oils - which will eat away gears and bearings in a matter of hours when the two are mixed, or swapped without a very thorough flush. (Synthetic also mixes with either - preventing very expensive damage you want to avoid with 44,000 rears, power dividers, and RoadRanger/Eaton transmissions)
     
  15. Pfingstl

    Pfingstl Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2016
    Location:
    Denmark
    Busy with work and waiting for parts - just installed new Powermaster Alternator 150Amp and new O2 Sensor. Power to "Pink Wire" via Relay (made long time ago when installing HEI - Now Dual Sync)

    One thing is certain. If battery is low the Handheld will have trouble booting without errors and it keeps rebooting when you touch the "buttons".

    3 x Reset and "Wizard" - warm up in "Drive" - still no "Learning" seen in "D". But I will fully charge the battery and take it for a spin later to see if "Learning" comes on........

    Pictures shows Voltage at IDLE in Drive (No Fans, 1 Fan, 2 Fans running) - IDLE jumps a little 650/700 - set to 700 - perhaps 725 or 750 would increase charging at idle. Will test. I do have a Crank Pulley that is slightly larger than the stock one - could be a solution to keep idle at the standard 600

    Haven't activated Vacuum in timing settings - any recommendations on timing settings with a stock 1971 454 Corvette - and "How to" or best way to max timing (first without vacuum and then ad vacuum to find "Ping"?)

    Idle/"D" - No Fans
    IMG_5498.jpg
    Idle/"D" - 1 Fan
    IMG_5499.jpg

    Idle/"D" - 2 Fans
    IMG_5497.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2016
  16. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Your readings look fine. Pull some sparkplugs and see what the insulators look like after running the car. They should look clean to light gray. I do see your vacuum reading decreased at idle, and suspect you have an exhaust manifold leak affecting the AF. Work with your AF targets to improve the vacuum and check for any small air leaks at the exhaust manifold. Unfortunately, you still have the problem of no "learning" LED.

    Idle RPM fluctuation is normal. As long as your voltage reading stays above 13 volts, under full electrical load, you don't need to increase the idle or install a smaller alternator pulley. Turn on 4-10 degrees of vacuum advance and see how much you can use without ping. Then leave it there. It looks like you will have to RMA the handheld. At least, you can continue driving without a handheld connected. I believe the ECU is learning. If right, it will only be a problem with the handheld.
     
  17. Pfingstl

    Pfingstl Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2016
    Location:
    Denmark
    Sorry for all the questions, but it's really nice with all the feedback I get. I do the same on Forums when I am able to.
    Eliminating possible errors is always nice and I am still learning.

    Vacuum reading decrease? How do you see that?
    Working with AF targets to improve Vacuum? How do I see what happens?
    (Just to be sure)

    Photos were made right after running the Wizard and both fans coming on and off again (1 at 185 and 2 at 190)
    The "last" photo was taken first (2 Fans on). I waited for the fans to turn of and took the "first" photo, and when 1 Fan turned on i took the "second" photo - got it ;-)

    I will look/listen for exhaust leaks and retighten bolts, but I haven't noticed any sound from leaks and all gaskets are from last season. Exhaust system is Stainless Magnaflow - had to redo a lot because of wrong angles on the tubing.........

    And of course a longer run to burn/clean Spark Plugs.

    Since the car is running, regardless of the Handheld, I agree it could be the problem.

    Will report back later this week :)

    Thanks again
    Jens
     
  18. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Hey Jens,
    I can see the vacuum decrease by looking at the MAP reading. This could be due to the reset. It went from a previous 34 to 43. If the learning is active, it should improve - as the same shows in your earlier posted handheld views.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2016
  19. A A

    A A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    An exhaust leak can be very slight - and you may not be able to hear or see it without aid. Smoke generators in the exhaust are sometimes used, but soapy water from a spray bottle may also work with a just started cold engine.
     
  20. Pfingstl

    Pfingstl Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2016
    Location:
    Denmark
    Just a little update after a busy time with work and Holliday.

    What has been done so far:
    New O2 Sensor
    New Powermaster Alternator - works great even at idle.
    Master reset
    = No changes - still not learning and Screen booting several times with errors (even with a fully charged battery and just turning the key - boots with initial 4 Ikon screen instead of "Master" and when you touch the screen it reboots - after two or three reboots after touching it comes on normal with the "Master" screen that I have set as my standard screen.

    Today:
    Removed Extension Cable from Screen - No Boot errors - so far (after 4-6 startups)
    Added 5 Degrees Vacuum advance - no pinging - will adjust to find max. Degrees
    Still not Learning.............

    Power to pink wire should be OK, but I will try to hook it up directly to the battery. (Now it via a relay directly to the starter +)
    Will leave the car without battery charger overnight to see if Handheld boots OK tomorrow.
    Will also check for exhaust leaks.

    A lot of rumble/backfire when you release the gaspedal going 60-70 on the highway - anyway to get rid of that? If you ease of the gas it doesn't rumble.

    I STILL BELIVE THE HANDHELD IS THE PROBLEM - IF NOT THE COMPUTER - BUT CAR STARTS, DRIVES AND PULLS WELL.

    Love the Dual Sync and that you can control ignition - I have had no pinging since installing the Dual Sync.

    Jens

    Higway cruising pic
    IMG_5557.jpg
     

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